Could this be my first Tegha?

Sikh_soldier · 22nd January 2008, 09:37 AM

Hi everyone, I just won this tulwar

:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWN:IT&ih=011

What does everyone think about the age and area of origin?,
I was interested due to the hilt, solid look of the whole sword and possibility due to its curve and thickness of blade of it being a tegha.

Possibly a long shot but I still like it and can't wait to get it in my hands!

Thank you for your comments

Bally

Sikh_soldier · 23rd January 2008, 11:31 PM

Hi everyone, I know its probably a long shot hoping it is a tegha
(especially after looking at past examples on oriental arms)

but i was only trying to prompt a conversation or debate regarding this piece, has no one any thing to say about it?

Battara · 23rd January 2008, 11:39 PM

Well, I am not sure. Had trouble getting the site to up load. If it is a tegha, it would be a thin one - I thought they were wider than that. Post pictures when it comes in.

Sikh_soldier · 24th January 2008, 12:07 AM

Hi Battara, thank you for your comments,
I see what you mean by the width, I was only looking at the curve

that helps in distinguishing mine from a tegha

Thanks again

Battara · 24th January 2008, 02:24 AM

You are more than welcome. I must agree with you that the curve is unusual for the typical tulwar. When the pictures come in maybe more knowledgeble folk can enlighten us both.

ariel · 24th January 2008, 03:42 AM

My understanding is that Tegha is a wide tulwar. So, IMHO, this is a Tegha.
Enjoy!

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2008, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sikh_soldier

Hi everyone, I know its probably a long shot hoping it is a tegha
(especially after looking at past examples on oriental arms)

but i was only trying to prompt a conversation or debate regarding this piece, has no one any thing to say about it?

It does indeed sometimes take some time to get responses Sikh Soldier, perhaps everybody is checking notes and references

To me the term 'tegha' is much like many of the terms used in describing many ethnographic edged weapons. I have seen tulwars described as tegha which were simply tulwars, however with rather substantial blades compared to many examples which had blades from 27-28" blades to about 33". One with the tegha description had a blade almost 36" and width of about 1 3/4". It must be remembered that the British light cavalry sabre M1796 had a blade of these dimensions and with a huge hatchet point, with these blades highly favored to mount in tulwars in the 19th century.

The 'sacrificial' or 'executioner' examples with massive broad blades and talwar hilts seem to me to be ceremonial ( used in buffalo sacrifice, but the executioner perspective is a bit more vague)or in the highly decorated with brass figures etc, possibly votive or bearing type swords. It seems unclear whether these huge bladed forms would be classified as tegha.

Haider considers the tegha blade to be heavy and deeply curved, which seems to apply to your blade with more apparant parabolic curve, so I agree it probably could be classified as a tegha. To be more correct in its description , a talwar with a tegha type blade, would probably be correct.

Best regards,
Jim

Sikh_soldier · 24th January 2008, 11:15 AM

Hi Jim, sorry if i came across to hasty, I was just really eager to know.

Thank you very much for your information, I am gaining a much better understanding.

when the tulwar comes and I will post the measurements.

Furthermore Jim, were tegha's ever used in battle than or was it sacrificial only? Would such a heavy blade be practical?

Also, another reason that I chose to purchase this, was the hilt.

It looked different, and I had not seen it before, on any ideas on the origin of the sword.

Thank you very much everyone and I will promise to be more patient

Regards
Bally

ariel · 24th January 2008, 01:50 PM

What is so unusual about this handle? There was enough variability ( Delhishani, Aurangzebi etc, et) to account for anything anyway.

Sikh_soldier · 24th January 2008, 05:25 PM

Hi Ariel, I meant unusual to me "I had not seen it before"
My knowledge is far from competent, being a beginner

I was refferring to the pommel ( I think

) the underside of the hilt where you would find a spike on a basket hilt.
I have seen this type more commonly:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tulwar

From that thread I understood that tulwar to be of rajput origin, I was just wondering where my sword could be placed by origin.

Regards
Bally

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2008, 07:26 PM

Hi Bally,
I can well understand being anxious and excited when awaiting the arrival of a newly acquired weapon, as I'm sure most of us do, so no worries about impatience OK? The best thing is that you have shared it here with us, and as I mentioned, many of us head for notes and references...just so you know in many ways we are all learning together.

You're doing pretty well for a beginner! This is a very nice example, and the noticeable upward curve and widened tip on a heavier than usual blade is what in my perception would allow the 'tegha' term to what would otherwise be considered a standard hilt talwar.

You are doing well in noting the spike form pommel rather than the cap or button, which would in my opinion further suggest Rajput attribution. In many cases the curved appendage as seen on the Hindu basket hilt (typically termed 'khanda' or if it has foreign blade 'firangi') has been seen on some tulwars in varied degree, more or less vestigially recalling that feature on these characteristically Rajput swords. We know that they were used by others as well, but that is another discussion.

As Ariel has noted, it is very difficult to attribute certain hilts to specific regions with talwars, as well as indeed trying to determine period .Standard forms were used over centuries so relying on subtle element variation and basic 'forensics' is often the only way to suggest possible dating.

G.N.Pant in his "Indian Arms and Armour" made a substantial effort in trying to establish a systemic designation of talwar hilts, and while it serves well as a benchmark with varying degree of validity, it would be unlikely to consider it more than a guideline.

Your hilt is as you have already surmised, probably Rajput, and quite likely from Rajasthan in the 19th c. These swords were often remounted, and I look forward to seeing better photos when this one arrives.

As discussed previously, the term tegha seems loosely applied and as with many of these terms, somewhat irrelevant. The term itself I believe may be etymologically a term used for sword blade in Arabic (?) and may have become colloquially used to describe a heavier than usual blade at some point.
A blade as seen on your sword would have indeed seen combat use as it is simply a heavier blade with deeper curve, the dynamics for which I would defer to the martial artists here, but I am sure, was quite effective.

Thank you for sharing your conquest!

and please post the photos when it arrives...maybe there will be some markings!

All best regards,
Jim

Sikh_soldier · 25th January 2008, 12:47 AM

Hello Jim

Thank you very much for a very very informative post, I now not only have a possible source of origin for my recently acquired sword, but also learned of a criteria to help distinguish other pieces later.

Also, thanks for the reference to the book (Indian arms and armour) I will try and locate a copy.

I have also noted from looking at examples of sold tulwars on oriental arms, that tulwars are not usually that curved.
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/search.php?q=tulwar

Regards
Bally

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2008, 05:35 AM

You're very welcome Bally! By using the search on our forum you will discover an amazing core of knowledge shared by all here, and it constantly grows thanks to you and others who share thier weapons as examples.
The Pant book is typically quite expensive, and I'm not sure if it might be obtainable through interlibrary loan...but may be worth a try. The publish date is 1980, Lahore, and I dont know the ISBN offhand.

Oriental Arms is not only an excellent and reliable source for weapons, but equally so for referencing them (stated as my own personal opinion from personal experience).

Talwars typically carry a relatively shallow curved blade, which in examples from late 18th into the 19th century corresponded more to European cavalry blades. As has been discussed recently on concurrent threads, there are many instances of talwars mounted with British cavalry sabre blades, with the most favored being the British M1796 light cavalry blade.

All very best regards,
Jim

22nd January 2008, 09:37 AM	#1
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Could this be my first Tegha? Hi everyone, I just won this tulwar : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWN:IT&ih=011 What does everyone think about the age and area of origin?, I was interested due to the hilt, solid look of the whole sword and possibility due to its curve and thickness of blade of it being a tegha. Possibly a long shot but I still like it and can't wait to get it in my hands! Thank you for your comments Bally

23rd January 2008, 11:31 PM	#2
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Hi everyone, I know its probably a long shot hoping it is a tegha (especially after looking at past examples on oriental arms) but i was only trying to prompt a conversation or debate regarding this piece, has no one any thing to say about it?

23rd January 2008, 11:39 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Well, I am not sure. Had trouble getting the site to up load. If it is a tegha, it would be a thin one - I thought they were wider than that. Post pictures when it comes in.

24th January 2008, 12:07 AM	#4
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Hi Battara, thank you for your comments, I see what you mean by the width, I was only looking at the curve that helps in distinguishing mine from a tegha Thanks again

24th January 2008, 02:24 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	You are more than welcome. I must agree with you that the curve is unusual for the typical tulwar. When the pictures come in maybe more knowledgeble folk can enlighten us both.

24th January 2008, 03:42 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding is that Tegha is a wide tulwar. So, IMHO, this is a Tegha. Enjoy!

24th January 2008, 11:15 AM	#8
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Hi Jim, sorry if i came across to hasty, I was just really eager to know. Thank you very much for your information, I am gaining a much better understanding. when the tulwar comes and I will post the measurements. Furthermore Jim, were tegha's ever used in battle than or was it sacrificial only? Would such a heavy blade be practical? Also, another reason that I chose to purchase this, was the hilt. It looked different, and I had not seen it before, on any ideas on the origin of the sword. Thank you very much everyone and I will promise to be more patient Regards Bally

24th January 2008, 01:50 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is so unusual about this handle? There was enough variability ( Delhishani, Aurangzebi etc, et) to account for anything anyway.

24th January 2008, 05:25 PM	#10
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Hi Ariel, I meant unusual to me "I had not seen it before" My knowledge is far from competent, being a beginner I was refferring to the pommel ( I think ) the underside of the hilt where you would find a spike on a basket hilt. I have seen this type more commonly: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tulwar From that thread I understood that tulwar to be of rajput origin, I was just wondering where my sword could be placed by origin. Regards Bally

24th January 2008, 07:26 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Bally, I can well understand being anxious and excited when awaiting the arrival of a newly acquired weapon, as I'm sure most of us do, so no worries about impatience OK? The best thing is that you have shared it here with us, and as I mentioned, many of us head for notes and references...just so you know in many ways we are all learning together. You're doing pretty well for a beginner! This is a very nice example, and the noticeable upward curve and widened tip on a heavier than usual blade is what in my perception would allow the 'tegha' term to what would otherwise be considered a standard hilt talwar. You are doing well in noting the spike form pommel rather than the cap or button, which would in my opinion further suggest Rajput attribution. In many cases the curved appendage as seen on the Hindu basket hilt (typically termed 'khanda' or if it has foreign blade 'firangi') has been seen on some tulwars in varied degree, more or less vestigially recalling that feature on these characteristically Rajput swords. We know that they were used by others as well, but that is another discussion. As Ariel has noted, it is very difficult to attribute certain hilts to specific regions with talwars, as well as indeed trying to determine period .Standard forms were used over centuries so relying on subtle element variation and basic 'forensics' is often the only way to suggest possible dating. G.N.Pant in his "Indian Arms and Armour" made a substantial effort in trying to establish a systemic designation of talwar hilts, and while it serves well as a benchmark with varying degree of validity, it would be unlikely to consider it more than a guideline. Your hilt is as you have already surmised, probably Rajput, and quite likely from Rajasthan in the 19th c. These swords were often remounted, and I look forward to seeing better photos when this one arrives. As discussed previously, the term tegha seems loosely applied and as with many of these terms, somewhat irrelevant. The term itself I believe may be etymologically a term used for sword blade in Arabic (?) and may have become colloquially used to describe a heavier than usual blade at some point. A blade as seen on your sword would have indeed seen combat use as it is simply a heavier blade with deeper curve, the dynamics for which I would defer to the martial artists here, but I am sure, was quite effective. Thank you for sharing your conquest! and please post the photos when it arrives...maybe there will be some markings! All best regards, Jim

25th January 2008, 12:47 AM	#12
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Hello Jim Thank you very much for a very very informative post, I now not only have a possible source of origin for my recently acquired sword, but also learned of a criteria to help distinguish other pieces later. Also, thanks for the reference to the book (Indian arms and armour) I will try and locate a copy. I have also noted from looking at examples of sold tulwars on oriental arms, that tulwars are not usually that curved. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/search.php?q=tulwar Regards Bally

25th January 2008, 05:35 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	You're very welcome Bally! By using the search on our forum you will discover an amazing core of knowledge shared by all here, and it constantly grows thanks to you and others who share thier weapons as examples. The Pant book is typically quite expensive, and I'm not sure if it might be obtainable through interlibrary loan...but may be worth a try. The publish date is 1980, Lahore, and I dont know the ISBN offhand. Oriental Arms is not only an excellent and reliable source for weapons, but equally so for referencing them (stated as my own personal opinion from personal experience). Talwars typically carry a relatively shallow curved blade, which in examples from late 18th into the 19th century corresponded more to European cavalry blades. As has been discussed recently on concurrent threads, there are many instances of talwars mounted with British cavalry sabre blades, with the most favored being the British M1796 light cavalry blade. All very best regards, Jim