Another What Have We Here

[Rick]

Let's hear about this interesting sword .
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...530514685&rd=1

[M.carter]

The hilt certainly seems turkish to me, karabela.

[wolviex]

Nice find!!!

And unfortunately, as it used to be with objects like this one, it is very hard and sometimes impossible to tell where it comes from, because its origin is in territories of many different and merging influences.

It is 17th century karabela indeed. It could be Turkish because this is the country where in 17th century karabelas where mostly in use. This one is with European blade, not much curved (half of the 17th cent?) with two fullers and what is more important, with sun, stars and moon engravings, very simple and characteristic for European blades. And this is OK, while European blades were very often in use for Turkish karabelas. But this was also the time when such sabres became very popular in Poland, and in 18th century karabelas has become “national” Polish weapon of noblemen. Handle of this sabre is quite unusual because of metal band which also covers part of the cross guard. I saw something similar, also some kind of reinforcement, and I saw it in Polish sabre. This sabre was with some Hungarian influences.

Without conclusion, but with suggestion on Turkey or Poland. Anyway 700$ for such sabre is in my opinion quite good purchase.

[tom hyle]

The longish ferule is quite similar to things that are common on Arab (per se) swords, and on kaskara. It's long but not full length smacks of Afghanistan. Are we sure it's iron? The way the brass rivet has worn out from under it seems odd? One would think a rivet like this, through the upper lagnet, might be a regional marker? The overlay on the handle resembles that on a central Asian/West-Tartaric carbine stock I used to have, including the jagged toothy edge of the ferule. The shape of the pommel resembles those seen on E European Moslem knives (usually IDd as Bosnian). The guard seems to have cracked at the corner of the cavity/base of a quillon, which is fairly common. The wide and steady width of the blade makes me think of Slavic (specifically Russian) sabres and hangers.

[RSWORD]

Nice big beefy blade on this example but I was a bit curious about the hilt. In one of the pictures I notice an "eyelet". A rivet with a washer around it very much like what you see in Zanzibar Saif with the Nimcha like hilt. I was curious if this was a reshaped Nimcha or Saif hilt hence the need for the metal border around the entire hilt?

[tom hyle]

An interesting idea, but certainly not a nimcha type saif. I don't think I've seen one with a blade so wide, but they are famous for imported blades (they seem a coastal weapon to me). The reason I say "no" is the guard. It is structured differently from a nimcha guard, though the quillons are of square section, which is a similarity(!). First, there are too few of them, and there don't seem to "be" missing ones. Second though is the basic structure. Nimcha guards I've seen are made two ways; (A) one (Yemen, Swahili, etc. AFAIK) is a single piece with a hole poked thru it for the tang (and sometimes an annoe, probably welded on). These are typically forged-surfaced. (B) The other (AFAIK Moorocan and IMHO likely Maghreb? Though Magreb Berbers have a known sword that seems a version of the type for pommel and blade, but is guardless.) seems to be welded up with two cheek plates forming two sides of the tang slot and the ends of the quillons welded between them (this is somewhat speculative; I've never etched these. They are smooth/ground/filed surfaced, and I once thought them castings, actually, because of the surface, and because the tang slot is sometimes hollower inside than at the ends, but I've seen them to show fibrousness appearing to be wrought iron and forging marks. In any event, they, too have only a slot for the tang. The structure I've proposed is seen with later medieval European swords.). Both types have very short, almost vestigial, lagnets (bottom only) that run very close to the surface of the blade, and are often "clenched" down to it, with or without a coinlike soft metal "slug" in between. Turkish hilts are different, and are essentially similar to the guard part of a tulwar; they have a large hooplike opening that admits handle material and/or adhesive. The lagnets (upper and lower) run off from the edges of this hoop, and so bind the surface of the handle and run considerably higher than the surface of the blade (sitting outside the sheath) as we see here. The quillons of this type I've seen are welded on, the hoop having been formed in two halves (structurally similar to B above, but a much wider and rounded opening.), and are usually round, square but rotated 45 degrees or otherwise rhomboid (bladelike) or flattened section, but not usually square with this orientation. Arabian per se saif may be, but I think it's like the Turkish ones, from what I've seen. If anyone can tell us more about the structure of Arabian, Persian, Moorocan, Slavic, and Sudannic (or any other) versions of the four lagnet (Turkic? Persian?) hilt, I'd appreciate it.
The round overlay you mention is actually particularly similar to the rivet burrs on the gun stock I mentioned, which a similar one to recently appeared in some photos; maybe from a museum? Maybe from Wolviex (did I spell that right? ) ??? I posted mine to the old swap forum if that exists; I think I called it a "gun handle" or "musket handle" in the title, but there may have been other words, too.....

[RSWORD]

I actually wasn't referring to the entire sword being a Saif although you do find Saif with European blades of Polish/Hungarian origin. I was only speaking of the hilt only. Because of its peculiar shape I was suggesting the hilt, and only the hilt, might be a reworked handle from another sword(and in my thoughts, a Zanzibar Saif) that was matched with the existing guard and blade. The hilt just doesn't look right for a good ole Polish or Turkish Karabella hilt.

[tom hyle]

Why not? It looks like one to me. the tang band is really nothing out of the ordinary.....

[ariel]

At a first glance it does look like a typical karabela. However, the more I look, the more I agree with RSWORD. I have three S.Arabian swords, including a Zanzibar "nimcha" and all of them have the same "bolster" constructed as a wrap-around iron sheet. The langets also look Aarabian: flattened and circularly incised at the tips. Very much like my real nimcha (as per Elgood).
I do not think the hilt was reworked from a Moroccan/Zanzibar nimcha: their configuration includes a semicircular space under the pommel (for the pinkie) and would severely compromised the contour of the reworked handle.
I think it is the original contour, and the sword is an Arabian one.
Not Turkish and definitely not Balkan, Hungarian, Polish or otherwise Slavic.
We should call it a Saif for want of a better word.
As for Karabela, let's remember that one of the potential origins of the word is Iraqi city of Karbala, although it (IMHO) just as fallacious as "cara e bella" and "Karb'Allah". Most likely, it is derived from the name of a Turkish town Karabel, near Izmir.

[Rick]

Nimcha-esque hilt , wide curved blade ; perhaps a corsair's sword from N. Africa ?
Barbary pirates and all that .

[tom hyle]

The long ferule does look like a feature common on Arabian (per se) saifs, but are those not usually wire wraps? And do they not ordinarily have narrower grips? Does one see iron tang bands and overlays in Arabia? I think only brass or silver are usual? They are seen in iron in both Afghanistan and Caucases. Also, I have seen a similar feature at least once on an Afghan sword. The pommel shape is one I see a lot on knives from E European Moslems, but I have indeed also seen a similar shape on a type of variant kodme or flyssa. The shape as I've seen it on them is more angular, but otherwise similar, but this is identical to the European ones to my memory. It is possible it is a N African sword, or even Arabian, though that seems "off" to me; just not that it is a "nimcha", or, I think, any part of one. I still think it is E European etc. I do not see any indication that the grip is reworked. I think....?.....I don't know if the guards like this are trackable for region (though I'm trying to find out). If it had super skinny lagnets with parrabolic sides that'd be pretty Arabian. If it had diamond-section ridge lines to lagnets and quillons, that'd be pretty African. But this particular variety of the cross-shaped guard with shortish triangular lagnets seems fairly region-neutral for any markers I know what they mean; not to say it can't be IDd by the guard; but it's not helping me much. The square quillons may indeed be a mark for Arabia; I'd like to hear what Radu and Wolviex think of that though; they both seem to have seen a lot of European ones....

[wolviex]

I think that Arabian plot could be correct while I have many problems to qualify this sabre as Turkish or Polish. I was trying to find some features which are characteristic for these countries, but I didn't thought about other ones like Arabia - and this was my fault. The problem is that quillons, rivets, this metal aplication around handle - doesn't look familiar to me, only with small exception. Now after RSword's and Ariel's arguments, which I didn't thought about earlier, I'm ready to exlude any Polish origin. Unfortunately Tom, quillons as I said it, doesn't look familiar to those I saw in our collection, except this "triangular langnets" which happen indeed in Polish, Turkish and I belive, almost every Karabela sabre.

Ragards!

[tom hyle]

Yeah, they seem widespread, the triangular lagnets, and they may well occur in Arabia, too. The iron feruling piece is I think maybe a bit unusual for anywhere, though it sounds like several of us have seen somewhat similar things from a variety of regions....and if a pommel shape is in Moslem E Europe, and in N Africa, it wouldn't be surprising to see it at least once in a while in Arabia....I've recently become very curious about regional ID and origin for this style guard; I have no big knowledge; I have to study a lot more examples, obviously. I think it will be an important regional tracker if we figure it out, and it may be very simple or very hard; for me it is just an idea, and I may pursue it with a variety of vigor; I doubt much will occur soon. But it is on my mind, so I suspect I will have my eye on that particular feature of swords I see for a while.

[ham]

Gentlemen,

Oddly, there are two other examples of sabres of this type on eBay at the moment:

As forum members noted above this form is Arab, though its range is considerable-- have seen examples from Jerusalem to Jidda. They appear to be local copies of Ottoman swords, not surprising since these regions comprised an important part of the Ottoman Provinces for several centuries. They are usually identifiable by a less defined pommel-crest than the Ottoman, simpler, more rustic guard (as noted above) and characteristic Arab engraved motifs on the mounts. Too, blades tend to be European or in European style, on this type. Later examples have more aesthetic guards but the quillons tend to be quite short, and are generally chained to the pommel on one side, as the first eBay example shows. There is good example in STARA BRON by Dr. Z. Zygulski, p. 254, pl. 259. It is described as an Arab sabre of the 18th century.
The sword referred to in the opening thread showed iron mounts simply engraved, with a toothed edge to the ferrule and appliques; this is highly typical of matchlock muskets from Hyderabad which had a large Arab population for many centuries; more importantly, Hyderabad maintained trade ties with the Arabian Peninsula almost continuously to the late 19th century. Comparison with known Hyderabad sabres indicates close similarities in blade-type as well.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Ian]

Ham:

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