Looking for References for 16th to 17th century European swords

Cathey · 12th April 2022, 10:20 AM

Hi Guys

I am looking for advice on the best reference books to buy that deal with 16th to 17th European swords. I realise these might not be published in English but with google translate that is not really an issue anymore.

I was looking at Blankwaffen I & 2 - Heribert Seitz (Klinkhardt e Biermann). Just looking for advice to see if these are worth buying.

Cheers Cathey

cornelistromp · 12th April 2022, 11:16 AM

in German language but absolutely worth buying, very good reference work.

corrado26 · 12th April 2022, 12:21 PM

One of the best sources in my opinion is "A.V.B.Norman, The Rapier and Small Sword 1460-1820, ISBN 0-405-13089-9 and "H.Koelling/H. Mueller, Europäische Hieb- und Stichwaffen, ISBN 3-327-00041-7

Cathey · 13th April 2022, 05:38 AM

Hi Guys

I have A.V.B.Norman, The Rapier and Small Sword 1460-1820, and have just ordered H.Koelling/H. Mueller, Europäische Hieb- und Stichwaffen and Blankwaffen I & 2 - Heribert Seitz (Klinkhardt e Biermann).

Arn also recommended Gefährlich und schön. Eine Auswahl historischer Waffen aus den Beständen der Kunstsammlungen der Veste Coburg. I havn’t tracked down a copy of this one at the right price yet. I am really looking for books that only deal with swords, not firearms.

Cheers Cathey

Triarii · 13th April 2022, 07:09 PM

AVB Norman is a key purchase.

I'm into mid C17th British swords (eg ECW era) so Stuart C Mowbrays 'British Military Swords Volume 1: 1600 - 1660'. It's mainly photos, but a great reference. ISBN 1931464618.
I've just been fortunate enough to buy at auction a sword illustrated in the book.

This covers a range of topics but includes a good illustrated essay of early English and Scottish basket hilts, without forking out 200+ GBP for Mazansky.
SCOTTISH WEAPONS AND FORTIFICATIONS 1100 - 1800 by David H Caldwell ISBN: 0859760472

Victrix · 13th April 2022, 09:21 PM

I’m sure you already have this wonderful book.

fernando · 13th April 2022, 09:29 PM

Oh ... i have this one

.

Cathey · 23rd April 2022, 07:25 AM

Hi Guys

I am particularly looking for research information on a specific form of early Military sabre that features a dog or lion head pommel. I think they are usually described as Swiss or German Circa 1640. I have attached a picture of a sword from this family that I am referring to. Any assistance with reference material will be greatly appreciated.

I have just made my third attempt to order a copy of “Europaische Hieb - Und Stichwaffen Aus Der Sammlung Des Museums Fur Deutsche Geschichte by Muller, Heinrich & Kolling, Hartmut” from America, hopefully this one will go through. Every time I order books via Abe books, they send me an email asking to increase the shipping, usually by over 100%.

Cheers Cathey

Hotspur · 23rd April 2022, 07:50 AM

Wouldn't that be a Swiss bear vs dog?

Hotspur · 23rd April 2022, 08:06 AM

HERMANN HISTORICA

'An Swiss officer's sabre, 2nd half of the 17th century Curved blade with a double-edged point and narrow fullers on both sides. Iron bar hilt with thumb ring, the obverse side with inset, elaborately chiselled brass guard plate showing a monster's head. Grip with elaborate brass wire winding and braided ferrules. Pommel in shape of a dog's head with punched and engraved decoration. Small piece at the right side of the snout missing. Pommel with remnants of fire-gilding. Length 91, 5 cm., historic, historical, 17th century, sword, swords, weapons, arms, weapon, arm, fighting device, military, militaria, object, objects, stills, clipping, clippings, cut out, cut-out, cut-outs, melee weapon, melee weapons, metal'

Swiss favored bears. The dog pommel hangers of England are somewhat different.

An couple of older auctions listing them as lions. Still, Swiss liked bears.
https://www.auction.fr/_en/lot/a-lio...swiss-10027809
https://www.ratisbons.com/auctions-a...h-century.html
Cheers
GC

Cathey · 23rd April 2022, 08:49 AM

thanks for that, I thought they were pretty ordinary looking lions, if they are meant to be bears that makes more sense.

Cheers Cathey

Victrix · 23rd April 2022, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

I have just made my third attempt to order a copy of “Europaische Hieb - Und Stichwaffen Aus Der Sammlung Des Museums Fur Deutsche Geschichte by Muller, Heinrich & Kolling, Hartmut” from America, hopefully this one will go through. Every time I order books via Abe books, they send me an email asking to increase the shipping, usually by over 100%.

Hi Cathey, I just received my copy of this book yesterday. I ordered it from ZVAB in Germany and it cost me EUR24 (of which EUR6 transport to Sweden). Might be worth trying at least although transport to Australia should be higher.

werecow · 23rd April 2022, 08:55 PM

I'm new to this topic myself and The Rapier and The Smallsword is extremely helpful.

I've also found the little book "European Sword Pommels" by R. Forrer helpful in figuring out what I was looking at from time to time. It's basically just tons of pictures of pommels with a description and date estimates. It also has some maker's marks in the back.

12th April 2022, 10:20 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Looking for References for 16th to 17th century European swords Hi Guys I am looking for advice on the best reference books to buy that deal with 16th to 17th European swords. I realise these might not be published in English but with google translate that is not really an issue anymore. I was looking at Blankwaffen I & 2 - Heribert Seitz (Klinkhardt e Biermann). Just looking for advice to see if these are worth buying. Cheers Cathey

13th April 2022, 05:38 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Books on early European swords Hi Guys I have A.V.B.Norman, The Rapier and Small Sword 1460-1820, and have just ordered H.Koelling/H. Mueller, Europäische Hieb- und Stichwaffen and Blankwaffen I & 2 - Heribert Seitz (Klinkhardt e Biermann). Arn also recommended Gefährlich und schön. Eine Auswahl historischer Waffen aus den Beständen der Kunstsammlungen der Veste Coburg. I havn’t tracked down a copy of this one at the right price yet. I am really looking for books that only deal with swords, not firearms. Cheers Cathey

13th April 2022, 09:21 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	I’m sure you already have this wonderful book. Attached Images

23rd April 2022, 07:25 AM	#8
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Swis-Campaign Sword-c1660 Hi Guys I am particularly looking for research information on a specific form of early Military sabre that features a dog or lion head pommel. I think they are usually described as Swiss or German Circa 1640. I have attached a picture of a sword from this family that I am referring to. Any assistance with reference material will be greatly appreciated. I have just made my third attempt to order a copy of “Europaische Hieb - Und Stichwaffen Aus Der Sammlung Des Museums Fur Deutsche Geschichte by Muller, Heinrich & Kolling, Hartmut” from America, hopefully this one will go through. Every time I order books via Abe books, they send me an email asking to increase the shipping, usually by over 100%. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

23rd April 2022, 08:06 AM	#10
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	HERMANN HISTORICA 'An Swiss officer's sabre, 2nd half of the 17th century Curved blade with a double-edged point and narrow fullers on both sides. Iron bar hilt with thumb ring, the obverse side with inset, elaborately chiselled brass guard plate showing a monster's head. Grip with elaborate brass wire winding and braided ferrules. Pommel in shape of a dog's head with punched and engraved decoration. Small piece at the right side of the snout missing. Pommel with remnants of fire-gilding. Length 91, 5 cm., historic, historical, 17th century, sword, swords, weapons, arms, weapon, arm, fighting device, military, militaria, object, objects, stills, clipping, clippings, cut out, cut-out, cut-outs, melee weapon, melee weapons, metal' Swiss favored bears. The dog pommel hangers of England are somewhat different. An couple of older auctions listing them as lions. Still, Swiss liked bears. https://www.auction.fr/_en/lot/a-lio...swiss-10027809 https://www.ratisbons.com/auctions-a...h-century.html Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 23rd April 2022 at 08:18 AM.

12th April 2022, 11:16 AM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	in German language but absolutely worth buying, very good reference work.

12th April 2022, 12:21 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	One of the best sources in my opinion is "A.V.B.Norman, The Rapier and Small Sword 1460-1820, ISBN 0-405-13089-9 and "H.Koelling/H. Mueller, Europäische Hieb- und Stichwaffen, ISBN 3-327-00041-7

13th April 2022, 07:09 PM	#5
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 113	AVB Norman is a key purchase. I'm into mid C17th British swords (eg ECW era) so Stuart C Mowbrays 'British Military Swords Volume 1: 1600 - 1660'. It's mainly photos, but a great reference. ISBN 1931464618. I've just been fortunate enough to buy at auction a sword illustrated in the book. This covers a range of topics but includes a good illustrated essay of early English and Scottish basket hilts, without forking out 200+ GBP for Mazansky. SCOTTISH WEAPONS AND FORTIFICATIONS 1100 - 1800 by David H Caldwell ISBN: 0859760472

13th April 2022, 09:29 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh ... i have this one .

23rd April 2022, 07:50 AM	#9
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Wouldn't that be a Swiss bear vs dog?

23rd April 2022, 08:49 AM	#11
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Bears make sense thanks for that, I thought they were pretty ordinary looking lions, if they are meant to be bears that makes more sense. Cheers Cathey

23rd April 2022, 08:55 PM	#13
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 500	I'm new to this topic myself and The Rapier and The Smallsword is extremely helpful. I've also found the little book "European Sword Pommels" by R. Forrer helpful in figuring out what I was looking at from time to time. It's basically just tons of pictures of pommels with a description and date estimates. It also has some maker's marks in the back.