Two shashkas for comment

kamachate · 4th June 2016, 11:09 AM

Hi all. I am a fan of this forum for years, as a member recently, and this is my first thread. I have two shahkas, here I would like to share. By the way, I am no collector or seller, but just a Circassian with two shashkas and two kindjals only

For the first one, what I can say, is a European blade mounted in Circassian(?) style. The blade is probably Solingen, a Hussar(?) blade, somehow appeared in the Caucasus. However, I cannot say more, as you will see, there are series of motives I could not figure out, including the thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=early+makers

The hilt is being repaired now, and the scabbard was repaired a few times, but not recently. What I am curious about is the origin and the date of the blade. Is there anyone who can help me with this? I would really appreciate any comments, for I could not find any details by myself.

The second is a modest one, with a double horse-shoe like mark.

Thanks for any of your contributions.
Best.

kamachate · 4th June 2016, 11:30 AM

This is an other figure I forgot to attach in the previous post. May be helpful for dating. Thank you very much.

ariel · 4th June 2016, 05:55 PM

Yes, it is a Circassian style. The blade is indeed European, likely Solingen, 17-18 century. These blades were used and reused, and it may have its second or third furnishings. The blade has either been narrowed to start with to fit the handle, or was sharpened many times. Large parts of the engravings are lost.

I cannot see your second one very well, but it seems from your description that the blade may be marked with gurda: originally Genoese mark that became a world- wide mark of trade blades for the "Orient". Would love to see the details of the handle and the blade. Hopefully, I might even get smarter:-)

I like these old and worn-out ones.

kamachate · 4th June 2016, 08:07 PM

Thank you very much, Ariel. I am going to take better photos, not by a phone

and post again. About the second one, I do not think it is Gurda, at least it does not seem to be any of the versions I have seen on the forums do far. I will post better photos, soon. The date in my mind for the European blade is the ends of the 17th century - not knowledge, just feeling

Thank you again.

ariel · 4th June 2016, 09:18 PM

We are in agreement about the age of the European blade.
Waiting for pics of the second one:-)

Battara · 4th June 2016, 09:50 PM

Welcome to our little forum!

I would respectfully disagree and say that you do have a collection (a small one)!

Would also like to see better pictures as well as pictures of your kindjals.....

BTW - fascinating blades. Traded blades from Western Europe?

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2016, 05:37 AM

I agree with the Circassian probability on these, and that these are European cavalry blades. While they of course may be Solingen, I feel due to the curious motif that they may well be Hungarian blades. This is to the similarity of the talismanic and magic associated devices and motif which may relate to the so called 'Transylvanian knot' which collectively refers to some of these. According to Ostrowski (1979) discussing Polish sabres, many Hungarian blades came from Styrian sources rather than Solingen.

Finding these kinds of blades mounted in these wonderfully interesting shashkas makes them all the more intriguing in my view.

Ariel, would I be correct in assuming that Circassian examples would be more likely found with European blades, while the 'gurda' ; 'ters maymal; kaldam etc. would be most commonly on Chechen and Daghestani swords?

ariel · 6th June 2016, 08:19 AM

Circassians got most of their blades from Crimea and European exports.
But there are Daghestani blades with obvious European provenance. I have a Daghestani one with old German blade.
It's late ( 2 am) and I am too tired to look, but Astvatsaturyan cites a Russian traveler who was dumbfounded finding piles of old blades in a Daghestani workshop: Genoese, Andrea Ferara, Solingen, you name it... But in general you are absolutely right.

The same Astvatsaturyan writes that most of the so-called "Hungarian " blades " Vivat Hussar" were in fact German. Just as most blades with Genoese "jaws" these days are found on Indian tulwars. Follow the money:-)
Arabs prized Hungarian blades very much, called them Majjar ( Magyar). Little did they know :-)

kamachate · 9th June 2016, 07:45 PM

Thank you, Battara, but I am hardly a collector, one of these is mine, the other is a gift to my sister

Keeping just one example of each, just to watch

No, these are form Turkey, where I, and a huge Circassian population, live.

kamachate · 9th June 2016, 08:20 PM

Thank you Ariel and Jim. Now I am going to add the better photos accordingly, beginning with the European blade. The "Transylvanian knot" Jim mentions is important I think, for there are some carvings that look like inscription, but hardly I can interpret these, and they do not like any script I know. Maybe my ignorance.

Here goes the European blade first. I thought it would be better if I added a drawing of the figures, to have a better idea, for the origin or a more precise dating. I also add a photo of one of the silver fittings on the belt, possibly old Circassian style.

kamachate · 9th June 2016, 08:23 PM

Here is one of the silver fittings on the belt.. Unfortunately, most fittings were silver plated copper, and they are in a terrible condition. Only the silver ones survived.

kamachate · 9th June 2016, 08:35 PM

Here is the photos of the second one. I tried to do my best. As I mentioned, I did not find any parallels for this mark on any blade (but surely I am no expert

)
The bone handle is poorly preserved, some part loosing. Please note the extension of the iron (like a hook) at the very end of the hilt.

4th June 2016, 11:09 AM	#1
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Two shashkas for comment Hi all. I am a fan of this forum for years, as a member recently, and this is my first thread. I have two shahkas, here I would like to share. By the way, I am no collector or seller, but just a Circassian with two shashkas and two kindjals only For the first one, what I can say, is a European blade mounted in Circassian(?) style. The blade is probably Solingen, a Hussar(?) blade, somehow appeared in the Caucasus. However, I cannot say more, as you will see, there are series of motives I could not figure out, including the thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=early+makers The hilt is being repaired now, and the scabbard was repaired a few times, but not recently. What I am curious about is the origin and the date of the blade. Is there anyone who can help me with this? I would really appreciate any comments, for I could not find any details by myself. The second is a modest one, with a double horse-shoe like mark. Thanks for any of your contributions. Best. Attached Images

4th June 2016, 11:30 AM	#2
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	This is an other figure I forgot to attach in the previous post. May be helpful for dating. Thank you very much. Attached Images

9th June 2016, 08:20 PM	#10
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Thank you Ariel and Jim. Now I am going to add the better photos accordingly, beginning with the European blade. The "Transylvanian knot" Jim mentions is important I think, for there are some carvings that look like inscription, but hardly I can interpret these, and they do not like any script I know. Maybe my ignorance. Here goes the European blade first. I thought it would be better if I added a drawing of the figures, to have a better idea, for the origin or a more precise dating. I also add a photo of one of the silver fittings on the belt, possibly old Circassian style. Attached Images

9th June 2016, 08:23 PM	#11
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Here is one of the silver fittings on the belt.. Unfortunately, most fittings were silver plated copper, and they are in a terrible condition. Only the silver ones survived. Attached Images

9th June 2016, 08:35 PM	#12
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Here is the photos of the second one. I tried to do my best. As I mentioned, I did not find any parallels for this mark on any blade (but surely I am no expert ) The bone handle is poorly preserved, some part loosing. Please note the extension of the iron (like a hook) at the very end of the hilt. Attached Images

4th June 2016, 05:55 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, it is a Circassian style. The blade is indeed European, likely Solingen, 17-18 century. These blades were used and reused, and it may have its second or third furnishings. The blade has either been narrowed to start with to fit the handle, or was sharpened many times. Large parts of the engravings are lost. I cannot see your second one very well, but it seems from your description that the blade may be marked with gurda: originally Genoese mark that became a world- wide mark of trade blades for the "Orient". Would love to see the details of the handle and the blade. Hopefully, I might even get smarter:-) I like these old and worn-out ones.

4th June 2016, 08:07 PM	#4
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Thank you very much, Ariel. I am going to take better photos, not by a phone and post again. About the second one, I do not think it is Gurda, at least it does not seem to be any of the versions I have seen on the forums do far. I will post better photos, soon. The date in my mind for the European blade is the ends of the 17th century - not knowledge, just feeling Thank you again.

4th June 2016, 09:18 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	We are in agreement about the age of the European blade. Waiting for pics of the second one:-)

4th June 2016, 09:50 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Welcome to our little forum! I would respectfully disagree and say that you do have a collection (a small one)! Would also like to see better pictures as well as pictures of your kindjals..... BTW - fascinating blades. Traded blades from Western Europe?

5th June 2016, 05:37 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	I agree with the Circassian probability on these, and that these are European cavalry blades. While they of course may be Solingen, I feel due to the curious motif that they may well be Hungarian blades. This is to the similarity of the talismanic and magic associated devices and motif which may relate to the so called 'Transylvanian knot' which collectively refers to some of these. According to Ostrowski (1979) discussing Polish sabres, many Hungarian blades came from Styrian sources rather than Solingen. Finding these kinds of blades mounted in these wonderfully interesting shashkas makes them all the more intriguing in my view. Ariel, would I be correct in assuming that Circassian examples would be more likely found with European blades, while the 'gurda' ; 'ters maymal; kaldam etc. would be most commonly on Chechen and Daghestani swords?

6th June 2016, 08:19 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Circassians got most of their blades from Crimea and European exports. But there are Daghestani blades with obvious European provenance. I have a Daghestani one with old German blade. It's late ( 2 am) and I am too tired to look, but Astvatsaturyan cites a Russian traveler who was dumbfounded finding piles of old blades in a Daghestani workshop: Genoese, Andrea Ferara, Solingen, you name it... But in general you are absolutely right. The same Astvatsaturyan writes that most of the so-called "Hungarian " blades " Vivat Hussar" were in fact German. Just as most blades with Genoese "jaws" these days are found on Indian tulwars. Follow the money:-) Arabs prized Hungarian blades very much, called them Majjar ( Magyar). Little did they know :-)

9th June 2016, 07:45 PM	#9
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Thank you, Battara, but I am hardly a collector, one of these is mine, the other is a gift to my sister Keeping just one example of each, just to watch No, these are form Turkey, where I, and a huge Circassian population, live.