16th Cent. Powder Flask???

Norman McCormick · 12th February 2009, 11:40 PM

Hi,
This item is being offered for sale locally. I do not want any monetary opinions but does anyone have any advice as to how I might identify whether or not this item is "right" i.e. does it appear to have age, what type of material is it made of and an opinion of the piece in general. I know that 'absolutes' are very difficult without actually handling the piece but any help would be appreciated.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 12th February 2009, 11:55 PM

Another photo.

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 04:47 PM

Hi Norman,

This is only the body, i.e. a fragment of a Nuremberg made caliver powder horn, with all its original iron mounts and frog hook missing. These were made in large numbers at Nuremberg workshops and we know of dated examples which mark a time line of 1598 to 1611, so the basic dating is 'early 17th century'. The body is of cow horn flattened and figured into shape by hot water. Various patterns of engraving are known, all of those depicting humans based on Old Testmant scenes; very often found is the Judith and Holofernes head scene but there are also engravings showing flower heads and intertwining floral motifs.

Common to the whole group are the concentrical circles on the oberse side where the frog hook was mounted.

Some of these horns were also made in Augsburg, Austria and Switzerland but those are clearly indentifiable by both their style of engraving and mounts.

I should estimate the fragment illustrated at about 150 USD as a large number of well preserved flasks of that type are in the market. So all that accounts for the price is the condition of the piece.

I attach images of samples dated 1601, 1603, 1606 and 1608 respectively, as well as of leather frogs with ball pouches to which these horns were attached by their obverse hooks.

Michael

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 04:54 PM

More.

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 05:12 PM

More.

The illustration at the bottom shows a caliver man (Schütze) with his caliver (which was lighter, shorter and of smaller bore than the heavy musket of the musketeer), powder horn and frog. This engraving is from Jacob de Gheyn's famos Wapenhandelinghe which wa published in 1608.

Michael

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 05:39 PM

Some finely made and well preserved leather frogs for caliver powder horns from my collection.

Michael

Norman McCormick · 13th February 2009, 06:43 PM

Hi Michael,
Many thanks for the superb info. Do you think it would be possible to find the parts to make this a complete item and if so how easy?
My Regards,
Norman.

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 07:14 PM

Sorry, Norman,

But honestly: no. There is not the slightest chance to complete that body with original matching parts, nor of re-building them in a decent way and at a reasonable price.

There are various good and complete flasks of this type up for sale every few months, the prices varying from ca. 1,100 to 1,500 USD. A complete piece would give you much more satisfaction, believe me. I never bought fragments in order to complete them. If you still want to purchase that body I think it would be best to keep it the way it is.

If you wish me to I will notify you as soon as the next pieces arise. I regularly search all sales wordwide.

Michael

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 07:17 PM

A Saxon caliver flask and leather frog preserved at the Musée de l'Armée, Paris.

Michael

Norman McCormick · 13th February 2009, 07:23 PM

Hi Michael,
Thanks again for the info and the offer. I'll keep searching here at a local level, prices a lot cheaper, and you never know what will turn up.
My thanks again.
Regards,
Norman.

Matchlock · 13th February 2009, 07:26 PM

You're welcome, Norman.

Good luck.

Regards,
Michael

Matchlock · 14th February 2009, 05:19 PM

More of de Gheyns 1608 engravings picturing the caliver man and his accouterments.

m

Matchlock · 23rd July 2012, 03:24 AM

For much more information please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8519

m

12th February 2009, 11:40 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	16th Cent. Powder Flask??? Hi, This item is being offered for sale locally. I do not want any monetary opinions but does anyone have any advice as to how I might identify whether or not this item is "right" i.e. does it appear to have age, what type of material is it made of and an opinion of the piece in general. I know that 'absolutes' are very difficult without actually handling the piece but any help would be appreciated. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

12th February 2009, 11:55 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Another photo. Attached Images

13th February 2009, 04:47 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Nuremberg Caliver Powder Horns, ca. 1600-10 Hi Norman, This is only the body, i.e. a fragment of a Nuremberg made caliver powder horn, with all its original iron mounts and frog hook missing. These were made in large numbers at Nuremberg workshops and we know of dated examples which mark a time line of 1598 to 1611, so the basic dating is 'early 17th century'. The body is of cow horn flattened and figured into shape by hot water. Various patterns of engraving are known, all of those depicting humans based on Old Testmant scenes; very often found is the Judith and Holofernes head scene but there are also engravings showing flower heads and intertwining floral motifs. Common to the whole group are the concentrical circles on the oberse side where the frog hook was mounted. Some of these horns were also made in Augsburg, Austria and Switzerland but those are clearly indentifiable by both their style of engraving and mounts. I should estimate the fragment illustrated at about 150 USD as a large number of well preserved flasks of that type are in the market. So all that accounts for the price is the condition of the piece. I attach images of samples dated 1601, 1603, 1606 and 1608 respectively, as well as of leather frogs with ball pouches to which these horns were attached by their obverse hooks. Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 13th February 2009 at 05:25 PM.

13th February 2009, 04:54 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More. Attached Images

13th February 2009, 05:12 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More. The illustration at the bottom shows a caliver man (Schütze) with his caliver (which was lighter, shorter and of smaller bore than the heavy musket of the musketeer), powder horn and frog. This engraving is from Jacob de Gheyn's famos Wapenhandelinghe which wa published in 1608. Michael Attached Images

13th February 2009, 05:39 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Some finely made and well preserved leather frogs for caliver powder horns from my collection. Michael Attached Images

13th February 2009, 06:43 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Michael, Many thanks for the superb info. Do you think it would be possible to find the parts to make this a complete item and if so how easy? My Regards, Norman.

13th February 2009, 07:14 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Sorry, Norman, But honestly: no. There is not the slightest chance to complete that body with original matching parts, nor of re-building them in a decent way and at a reasonable price. There are various good and complete flasks of this type up for sale every few months, the prices varying from ca. 1,100 to 1,500 USD. A complete piece would give you much more satisfaction, believe me. I never bought fragments in order to complete them. If you still want to purchase that body I think it would be best to keep it the way it is. If you wish me to I will notify you as soon as the next pieces arise. I regularly search all sales wordwide. Michael

13th February 2009, 07:17 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Saxon caliver flask and leather frog preserved at the Musée de l'Armée, Paris. Michael Attached Images

13th February 2009, 07:23 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Michael, Thanks again for the info and the offer. I'll keep searching here at a local level, prices a lot cheaper, and you never know what will turn up. My thanks again. Regards, Norman.

13th February 2009, 07:26 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	You're welcome, Norman. Good luck. Regards, Michael

14th February 2009, 05:19 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More of de Gheyns 1608 engravings picturing the caliver man and his accouterments. m Attached Images

23rd July 2012, 03:24 AM	#13
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For much more information please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8519 m