Great war sword mark for id

[Cerjak]

Hi everybody ,
I hope that someone can help me to identify the markings of this medieval sword
The size from this word is about 130 cm.
Any comment on it will be welcome.

[Cerjak]

more pictures

[Andreas]

Hi,
The cross and arrows symbol was a badge of the Schützenbrudershaften, the citizen militias in Germany (and neighbouring regions, Austria, Tyrol, Switzerland, ca. 14th-17th century), still used today by historical reenactment societies.
Regards,
Andreas

[Zwielicht]

Can't say for sure, but the cross on the pommel reminds that on the Jerusalem kingdom coat of arms. Wonderful sword, by the way.

[Cerjak]

Hi Zwielicht & Andreas
Thank you for your comment about the pommel marks.
So the last mark is this Arrow on the blade , It would be fantastic if someone could tell me more about the signification from this mark.
A last particularity from this sword is size with a blade about 1 meter ( 40 inches ) and hilt about 27 centimeters It could be the size for a two hands sword .
any comment on it would be welcome


Cerjak

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Zwielicht

Can't say for sure, but the cross on the pommel reminds that on the Jerusalem kingdom coat of arms. Wonderful sword, by the way.

The Jerusalem cross is adorned by four crosslets. This one alone is the so called Cross Potent (Krückenkreuz), mostly found in Roman Catholic insignia.
This sword being authentic, falling into the XIII-XIX century period, is something extremely rare and highly valuable, only seen in museums and special collections; am i wrong ?

.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hi Zwielicht & Andreas
Thank you for your comment about the pommel marks.
So the last mark is this Arrow on the blade , It would be fantastic if someone could tell me more about the signification from this mark.
A last particularity from this sword is size with a blade about 1 meter ( 40 inches ) and hilt about 27 centimeters It could be the size for a two hands sword .
any comment on it would be welcome


Cerjak

The Shutzenbrudershaften were armed initially with bows and crossbows (like their Dutch equivalent the Shutterij, of Rembrandt’s the Night Watch fame) so that would account for the arrow on the blade. From the 17th century they were gradually replaced by mercenaries, and eventually evolved to the well known contemporary shooters guilds (shooting clubs) of German speaking countries.
They always had very strong ties with the church and provided guard during religious festivals and processions. That would explain the cross potent on the pommel. As for the sword itself, perhaps Oakeshott XIIa?
Best,
Andreas

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding information Andreas!!! and I have been able to add to my notes accordingly. Thank you so much.
Clearly an amazing example Jean Luc and thank you for sharing it here.

All best regards,
Jim

[Iain]

I'm going to have to be that horrible person who asks about the provenance attached to this sword.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

I'm going to have to be that horrible person who asks about the provenance attached to this sword.

Meaning provenance=authencity ?

[Iain]

Originally Posted by fernando

Meaning provenance=authencity ?

It doesn't, but it can be part of it.

It's an interesting sword but unfortunately, when it comes to Medieval swords like this, I am a very cautious skeptic.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

... when it comes to Medieval swords like this, I am a very cautious skeptic.

Such was the spirit of my 'subtle' approach in the last paragraph of my post # 6.
... If i saw this splendid example being offered out there, my first reaction would be sort of 'too good to be true' .

[Iain]

Originally Posted by fernando

Such was the spirit of my 'subtle' approach in the last paragraph of my post # 6.
... If i saw this splendid example being offered out there, my first reaction would be sort of 'too good to be true' .

I guess I hadn't had enough coffee to detect it at the time. I'm not the subtle type I guess!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

I guess I hadn't had enough coffee to detect it at the time. I'm not the subtle type I guess!

[Cerjak]

Dear Fernando & Iain

The question of authenticity is always the main thing is this kind of expensive weapons and would like to tell you that I know this old knight previous owner of this sword and because he was looking for more technologies I have made trade with him swap with a flintlock gun !Let be serious because I could stay with doubts!
As you know Fernando before to buy I always ask multiple advices to very serious people who have great knowledge on those weapons, and of course it is always on pictures so there is always a risk that they don’t seen something wrong as weight etc…
All of them was positive about authenticity
Also I always ask a live time guaranty on each expensive item I project to buy and this sword came from a professional antic sword dealer who told me that it was previously in the collection from a Swiss land collector.
So the question is how I could be 100 % sure? As everybody know there is so much fakes in auctions Everywhere in France and in Europe some expert in weapon have bad reputation!
But you’re I right when it is too nice we must take care …
I have watch carefully this sword during many hours and didn’t seen anything wrong who had given me a doubt about age , patination …
If is was a copy it will be a fantastic copy and we should see other examples in the market ?
So I need to find the expert in France who could clarify or not the authenticity and if someone could tell me who is the best expert in my France or Belgium it will be nice.
So again thank you for your comments
Jean-Luc
Jean-Luc

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Andreas

The Shutzenbrudershaften were armed initially with bows and crossbows (like their Dutch equivalent the Shutterij, of Rembrandt’s the Night Watch fame) so that would account for the arrow on the blade. From the 17th century they were gradually replaced by mercenaries, and eventually evolved to the well known contemporary shooters guilds (shooting clubs) of German speaking countries.
They always had very strong ties with the church and provided guard during religious festivals and processions. That would explain the cross potent on the pommel. As for the sword itself, perhaps Oakeshott XIIa?
Best,
Andreas

Dear Andreas

Many thanks for this precious information !

Jean-Luc

[Cerjak]

Dear Fernando & Lain

Last detail I've forgot to mention: the point of balance is 10 centimeters from the crossgard ,a good score for a medieval sword ..... together ,guard pommel blade marks patination are a coherent whole !I don’t understand the skeptical opinion about this sword. In which elements of this sword the doubt could be based ?

best

Jean-Luc

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Dear Fernando & Lain

Last detail I've forgot to mention: the point of balance is 10 centimeters from the crossgard ,a good score for a medieval sword ..... together ,guard pommel blade marks patination are a coherent whole !I don’t understand the skeptical opinion about this sword. In which elements of this sword the doubt could be based ?

best

Jean-Luc

Hi Jean-Luc, obviously since you have the sword in hand you are best placed to form an opinion on it. Unfortunately because of the large number of fakes on the market at the moment, both at auction and with private dealers, there are a lot of "too good to be true" swords out there as of course you know.

With your example the inlays are unusual. The condition of the inlay is also unusual for me, all of it appears to be intact. That's not impossible of course, but again, unusual. I could also say the slightly raised nature of the inlay is odd to me, but I am only used to handling swords with inlay with much less corrosion and losses to the blade material. So perhaps it is nothing and I am just ignorant.

It is of course not possible to determine authenticity just from photographs and I am certainly not an expert to do it in any case! But the points above really what made me think about this sword.

I hope of course it is entirely genuine, because it is really a very nice and unique example in that case.

All the best,
Iain

[fernando]

Salut Jean-luc,
My knowledge is infinitely less than enough to judge on the autheticity of your sword. My skepticism is only conversational, as based on the statistic evidence that only 'one in a thousand' of such rare swords is the real thing.
I see that you have some supporting background on the provenance of your example. Assuming that it is a genuine sword, with those three marks in such a pristine condition , i can only feel envious for not being myself the one to have the previlege to own it.
As a ransom of my previous impertinence, i will ask someone i know, who has a significant knowledge of these things, whether he has already had contact with this type of marks, to try und unveal the mistery still residing on them.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Salut Jean-luc,
My knowledge is infinitely less than enough to judge on the autheticity of your sword. My skepticism is only conversational, as based on the statistic evidence that only 'one in a thousand' of such rare swords is the real thing.
I see that you have some supporting background on the provenance of your example. Assuming that it is a genuine sword, with those three marks in such a pristine condition , i can only feel envious for not being myself the one to have the previlege to own it.
As a ransom of my previous impertinence, i will ask someone i know, who has a significant knowledge of these things, whether he has already had contact with this type of marks, to try und unveal the mistery still residing on them.

Fernando

It will be great if you have the luck to ask to a friend of you his opinion about those marks ,I will send you high resolution pictures so it will be better for this study.

Jean-Luc

[sioume]

Salut Jean Luc

I am a french collectionneur ( medieval & Renaissance period) not used yet to this forum...!!
The only thing I can tell you Jean Luc is there are not serious expert in France.
Armouries collecting is not as developp as in german or english countries therefore the market is rather poor.
The only serious way could be to show your sword to Thomas Del Mar (Sotheby's) or contact a reputable expert or dealer ..
I do not know if I can named him on this forum so you can send me a private mail.
La vie est dure pour les collectionneurs français... Hard live for french collectionneurs..!
A bientôt
Alain

[fernando]

I am sorry to tell you Jean-Luc that, the person i was counting on to give us a help in the identification of the marks, is no longer available .

[Cerjak]

Dear Fernando & Lain
Regarding the origin from the sword I had the luck to have been in contact with a precedent owner who had this sword in his collection during 5 years .he bought it from a collection from York in the UK and he was told the sword was bought in Germany in the 80”It is incroyable how this sword is travelling ! In the same time he had send me some information about this arrow find on the forte.
So about the authenticity I can’t have any doubt, he is great collector and also member from the forum and everybody here respect his large knowledge on this kind of sword.

Best regards

Jean-Luc

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by sioume

Salut Jean Luc

I am a french collectionneur ( medieval & Renaissance period) not used yet to this forum...!!
The only thing I can tell you Jean Luc is there are not serious expert in France.
Armouries collecting is not as developp as in german or english countries therefore the market is rather poor.
The only serious way could be to show your sword to Thomas Del Mar (Sotheby's) or contact a reputable expert or dealer ..
I do not know if I can named him on this forum so you can send me a private mail.
La vie est dure pour les collectionneurs français... Hard live for french collectionneurs..!
A bientôt
Alain

Bonjour Alain,

I had try to send you a private message but I wasn't alowed to do it ,I don't know why so may be you could try from your side to send me your email adresse.
Jean-Luc

[Iain]

Hi Jean-Luc,

Yes the arrow is a known symbol, actually the photo you posted highlights one of the things I found puzzling about the marks on your sword - on the photo you posted the style is the usual one for inlays of this type, the main form of the mark is chiseled out and then crossing lines are used to help insure the inlay stays in place. I have examples of this in my own collection. In the photo the inlay is also quite flat with the surface of the steel.

For me it is unusual and interesting your sword.

All the best,
Iain

[Cerjak]

Hi Lain,
Interesting detail about the manufacturing techniques of brass inlays.
I the case of this sword I would like to check if it could be Gold inlays. Because it doesn't look like brass.
In this case do you know if the manufacturing techniques were the same?


Best regards

Jean-Luc

[sioume]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Bonjour Alain,

I had try to send you a private message but I wasn't alowed to do it ,I don't know why so may be you could try from your side to send me your email adresse.
Jean-Luc

I sent you a private message Jean -Luc , please do not hesitate to contact me.
Best
Alain

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Jean-Luc,

Yes the arrow is a known symbol, actually the photo you posted highlights one of the things I found puzzling about the marks on your sword - on the photo you posted the style is the usual one for inlays of this type, the main form of the mark is chiseled out and then crossing lines are used to help insure the inlay stays in place. I have examples of this in my own collection. In the photo the inlay is also quite flat with the surface of the steel.

For me it is unusual and interesting your sword.

All the best,
Iain

Some pictures from a type XIIIa with two latten-inlaid arrows

[JamesKelly]

Quite a stretch, but something about the arrows in this German mark, p253 Small Arms Makers by Col. Robert E. Gardner seems similar. Original reference Catalog of Sale of Collection of Henry Griffith Keasby, New York, 1925