keris melayu for comment

hanggoye · 24th March 2010, 12:18 PM

this blade actually have a hilt and pedokok, but i only purchase his blade because of some reason..

hopefully can get the hilt end of this month..

length of this blade is 17 inch and has a wide base..

but i dont know what type of keris melayu it is because it's look like malela in some angel, also look like pandai saras.. i really need the opinion from all the members from this forum to help me to identified this blade..all your opinion and comment to discuss this blade are most welcome..

hanggoye · 25th March 2010, 01:03 PM

any idea from you guys bout this blade??i really need to know more bout this keris..any comment are most welcome..

BluErf · 25th March 2010, 03:42 PM

Judging from the gandik style and ganja, I think this is a Kelantanese carita.

The secondary fullers extending to the fourth luk is unusual. I've never seen anything like that before. It has a disconcerting effect as it is like a end-luk that terminates to the right.

hanggoye · 25th March 2010, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Judging from the gandik style and ganja, I think this is a Kelantanese carita.

The secondary fullers extending to the fourth luk is unusual. I've never seen anything like that before. It has a disconcerting effect as it is like a end-luk that terminates to the right.

i also think this is kelantanese blade but not sure what type of kelantanese blade..

can i get more detail what you mean about 2nd paragraph of your comment bluerf?

David · 25th March 2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanggoye

i also think this is kelantanese blade but not sure what type of kelantanese blade..

can i get more detail what you mean about 2nd paragraph of your comment bluerf?

BluErf has described the type of Kelantanese blade this is. It is what is known as "carita".
If you look at your blade you can see that the fullers within the body of the blade come to a point in the fourth luk creating a profile of a blade within the blade. The point of this profile begins to turn to the right (in the last photo). If you look to the actual end of your keris the actual point turns in the other direction, towards the front edge of the blade. If we were to just look at this inner profile formed by the fullers we can count 4 luks, an even amount. Because keris luks are always an odd number your point always terminates towards the front edge of the blade. I think Kai Wee finds this inner blade disconcerting because it terminates in the other direction.

PenangsangII · 26th March 2010, 12:01 PM

I totally agree with kai Wee and David....

DAHenkel · 27th March 2010, 01:17 AM

Woah, sorry guys but hold your horses a second. This one looks way more Pattani to me than Kelantan. The ganja is a bit taller than most but overall its very Pattani. The sheath is also much more Pattani. Hanggoye, is the blade original to the sheath? Would be nice to see the hilt but I'm 90% certain this keris came from north of the border...

hanggoye · 27th March 2010, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Woah, sorry guys but hold your horses a second. This one looks way more Pattani to me than Kelantan. The ganja is a bit taller than most but overall its very Pattani. The sheath is also much more Pattani. Hanggoye, is the blade original to the sheath? Would be nice to see the hilt but I'm 90% certain this keris came from north of the border...

hye dahenkel

thanx dahenkel for your comment..yes, this is original sheath..about the ganja yes, it's bigger..the wide of this keris is about 4inch..

can i know why you think this keris is from pattani dahenkel and do you thing this blade are all origin??

regards

Alam Shah · 27th March 2010, 02:53 AM

Imho, this is a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani.. with its fuller and base features.. a Northern Peninsular blade. The 'tebeng' sheath style could be misleading.. Does the blade sits well in its sheath? Can we have a picture from the top and front, while the blade is in its sheath..

hanggoye · 27th March 2010, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Imho, this is a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani.. with its fuller and base features.. a Northern Peninsular blade. The 'tebeng' sheath style could be misleading.. Does the blade sits well in its sheath? Can we have a picture from the top and front, while the blade is in its sheath..

hye alam shah,

thanx for your comment and i know you have seen this blade at my friend site in multiply..i just want him to put this for discussion since i don't have acc anymore..

i dont know either this is original sheath or not but the blade is sits well in this sheath.. i will pos the pic as request after this...

tq alam shah dropping the comment here...

regards

hanggoye · 27th March 2010, 03:34 AM

more picture for this keris

BluErf · 27th March 2010, 04:27 AM

Hmm... the taller ganja is one thing, but the way protrudes out and its prominence looked more Kelantanese to me, but must admit, this is a bit grey. I guess without the hilt, it is a bit difficult to tell the point of origin as well.

hanggoye · 27th March 2010, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hmm... the taller ganja is one thing, but the way protrudes out and its prominence looked more Kelantanese to me, but must admit, this is a bit grey. I guess without the hilt, it is a bit difficult to tell the point of origin as well.

the hilt for this blade is pekaka type and from "akar bahar(i dont know what we call this in english)" and the pedokok is from suasa if i not mistaken.. the previous owner doesn't want to sell the pedokok to me but the hilt i will post it when i get it next week..

David · 27th March 2010, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hmm... the taller ganja is one thing, but the way protrudes out and its prominence looked more Kelantanese to me, but must admit, this is a bit grey. I guess without the hilt, it is a bit difficult to tell the point of origin as well.

Could the hilt being with this blade really help to nail the origin of the blade if we have no provenance that the hilt is original to the blade?

BluErf · 27th March 2010, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanggoye

the hilt for this blade is pekaka type and from "akar bahar(i dont know what we call this in english)" and the pedokok is from suasa if i not mistaken.. the previous owner doesn't want to sell the pedokok to me but the hilt i will post it when i get it next week..

Akar bahar is black coral. Very precious material for keris hilt.

hmmm... too bad he wouldn't sell the pendoko. The 2 will really make a statement together.

BluErf · 27th March 2010, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Could the hilt being with this blade really help to nail the origin of the blade if we have no provenance that the hilt is original to the blade?

Well, we live with uncertainty in the world of keris collecting

The hilt does help a bit. If the hilt goes with the sheath, it would be easier to help with identification. If the hilt is obviously not fitting or appropriate, then we would have to discount it. A lot of ifs actually.

BluErf · 27th March 2010, 06:26 AM

Sorry to be a bother, but can we see the front of the sampir please.

tks!

ganjawulung · 27th March 2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Imho, this is a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani.. with its fuller and base features.. a Northern Peninsular blade. The 'tebeng' sheath style could be misleading.. Does the blade sits well in its sheath? Can we have a picture from the top and front, while the blade is in its sheath..

Dear Shahrial,
Maybe this is a stupid question. Is there any relevance, between name of "cherita" or cerita/carita of this 9 luks keris with dhapur's name in javanese keris' idiom? Would you enlighten me, is there any book on names of dhapur of Pattani kerises, or Kelantani kerises?
My question is related with my confuseness on names and naming of dhapur. Because what I know in javanese keris term, if I'm not mistaken, dhapur carita (or some variants of dhapur carita) comes with 11 luks (carita, carita bungkem, carita daleman, carita gandhu, carita genengan, carita keprabon, carita prasaja -- with only slight differenceS in very small details in each carita), and also comes with 15 luks carita buntala, luk 17 carita klenthang or kalenthang...
Does the name of "carita" or "cerita" in Pattani or Kelantan kerises have relation with "carita" in javanese term which means more or less, "story" or "tales"?
I apologize for my ignorance...

GANJAWULUNG

David · 27th March 2010, 07:13 PM

Ganja, this is a good question that i have often wonder about as i discovered some time ago that a Javanese carita bears little characteristic similarities with the Peninsula form of the same name.

DAHenkel · 28th March 2010, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanggoye

hye dahenkel

thanx dahenkel for your comment..yes, this is original sheath..about the ganja yes, it's bigger..the wide of this keris is about 4inch..

can i know why you think this keris is from pattani dahenkel and do you thing this blade are all origin??

regards

It is not always very easy to tell the difference between Kelantan and Pattani blades. Pattani had a lot of influence on Kelantan and many Pattani craftsmen migrated to Kelantan - especially after the Thai took over. I have spent a great deal of time with Nik Rashidee talking and looking at kerises from Kelantan and Pattani but even then we sometimes cannot tell which is which. As a general rule Pattani kerises tend to be a bit slimmer and less stocky. They tend to have longer, thinner ganja and gandik. However these are only general rules and can't always be relied upon exclusively. The dress can tell you a lot if it is original to the blade but as has already been pointed out that's also a minefield. The sheath of your piece is very Pattani looking to me but I would have to see it in person I think to be 100% certain. Sometimes, how something looks in photos can be very deceptive.

ganjawulung · 28th March 2010, 07:24 AM

Just for comparison, this is "carita keprabon" or literally means "royal carita", one variant of among dhapurs of caritas in javanese keris world... Usually carita dhapur is 11 luks or more...

GANJAWULUNG

Alam Shah · 29th March 2010, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial,
Maybe this is a stupid question. Is there any relevance, between name of "cherita" or cerita/carita of this 9 luks keris with dhapur's name in javanese keris' idiom? Would you enlighten me, is there any book on names of dhapur of Pattani kerises, or Kelantani kerises?

Dear pak Jimmy,

I don't think the question is stupid. I've though of it as well.

I do not feel that it's the same as the javanese dapur Carita. When mentioned as keris cherita (carita/cerita), in Malay context, it meant a Peninsular piece with shallow fullers.. normally in a straight blade configuration of the Peninsular variety. However, there are contentions, from the various school of thoughts. For a book on Peninsular Kerises, you can refer to my site, Rahsia Keris Melayu. The book is written in Malay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

My question is related with my confuseness on names and naming of dhapur. Because what I know in javanese keris term, if I'm not mistaken, dhapur carita (or some variants of dhapur carita) comes with 11 luks (carita, carita bungkem, carita daleman, carita gandhu, carita genengan, carita keprabon, carita prasaja -- with only slight differenceS in very small details in each carita), and also comes with 15 luks carita buntala, luk 17 carita klenthang or kalenthang...

In my post, I indicate cherita (cerita/carita) not as a dapur. I indicated as "a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani". In malay language of the Peninsular, there are various accents, the use of the brackets is to indicate alternative spelling and pronunciation. I'm aware of the various carita dapurs you mentioned. That is not what I meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

the name of "carita" or "cerita" in Pattani or Kelantan kerises have relation with "carita" in javanese term which means more or less, "story" or "tales"? I apologize for my ignorance...

GANJAWULUNG

Unfortunately, I do not have enough knowledge to be certain if it does or does not have relation. However, the loose translation of cherita is, 'a blade with a story'.. I suppose, in the Peninsular, the term is loosely used refering to a variety of blades regardless of luks, unlike in Java, where it is strictly adhered to, a dapur form in pakem. I hope that gives you some clarity with my statement.

PenangsangII · 29th March 2010, 06:37 AM

Ultimately, when naming a pamor or dapur or whatever with respect to the keris, it must have to have certain meaning, the philosophy behind a name...
I believe Javanese terminology such as Charita has its philosophy why it is named as such....

However, when we talk about Semenanjung keris terminology, very often the names come as description of what is seen physically, without any philosophy behind it. I am afraid those terminologies could have come from collectors or keris dealers only...

ganjawulung · 30th March 2010, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

However, when we talk about Semenanjung keris terminology, very often the names come as description of what is seen physically, without any philosophy behind it. I am afraid those terminologies could have come from collectors or keris dealers only...

Thanks, Penangsang. One more confuseness of mine is, do I need the hilt being with the blade to nail the point of origin of a keris? Can't we decide the origin of the blade only, without being with the hilt? (considering that hilt is interchangeable, and not fixed in one piece with the pesi or tang...)

GANJAWULUNG

khalifah muda · 30th March 2010, 08:30 AM

Akar bahar in White or Red or Black?
FYI, In english would be White Coral or Black Coral or Red Coral.

Both Kelantanese or Pattani do use this media for making hilts. But it is often to see Kelantan pieces with coral hilts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanggoye

the hilt for this blade is pekaka type and from "akar bahar(i dont know what we call this in english)" and the pedokok is from suasa if i not mistaken.. the previous owner doesn't want to sell the pedokok to me but the hilt i will post it when i get it next week..

PenangsangII · 30th March 2010, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Thanks, Penangsang. One more confuseness of mine is, do I need the hilt being with the blade to nail the point of origin of a keris? Can't we decide the origin of the blade only, without being with the hilt? (considering that hilt is interchangeable, and not fixed in one piece with the pesi or tang...)

GANJAWULUNG

Pak Ganja, from my own experience, its hard to differentiate, say Bugis style blade made in Trengganu, Pattani and so on without the dress...

David · 30th March 2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalifah muda

Akar bahar in White or Red or Black?
FYI, In english would be White Coral or Black Coral or Red Coral.
Both Kelantanese or Pattani do use this media for making hilts. But it is often to see Kelantan pieces with coral hilts.

Often? Really? Does this mean that you have numerous examples to show us?

ganjawulung · 31st March 2010, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Pak Ganja, from my own experience, its hard to differentiate, say Bugis style blade made in Trengganu, Pattani and so on without the dress...

Then, Penangsang, could you guarantee -- that the hilt being with the blade, is the "original" hilt. Or who could guarantee? And what happened if -- for instance -- you got a Bugis blade which geographically could be a couple thousand kilometers away from you in Sulawesi, then you dressed it for your purpose locally where you belong to now -- and you dressed the blade as a Terengganu dress, for instance? Or Kelantanese dress or Javanese, Cirebonese dress. Can you nail it as a Terengganu, or Kelantan keris, a Javanese keris, a Cirebonese keris?

GANJAWULUNG

PenangsangII · 31st March 2010, 04:09 AM

Salam Pak Ganja,

In Peninsula, if we try to define keris blades (old) based on geographical origin, we tend to split into 2 categories - keris Melayu and keris Jawa.

Having said that, keris Jawa is easier to categorize as it has pakems, tangguh and also a lot of reference to go back to. But then when it comes to keris Melayu (Bugis included), we wud be having big problems. No one can tell for sure whether its a Trengganu, or Perak or Kelantan/Pattani piece. No record whatsoever about empu that can be traced back, say to 200 years. Sulawesi is a different matter, because we somewhat can tell the wesi used, the garap style, blade profile and thru experience - tanting to check the bobot. That also no one can tell for sure..... If we use dress as an indicator, I think the chances of our tangguhan to be correct is almost .... well... none

24th March 2010, 12:18 PM	#1
hanggoye Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 34	keris melayu for comment this blade actually have a hilt and pedokok, but i only purchase his blade because of some reason.. hopefully can get the hilt end of this month.. length of this blade is 17 inch and has a wide base.. but i dont know what type of keris melayu it is because it's look like malela in some angel, also look like pandai saras.. i really need the opinion from all the members from this forum to help me to identified this blade..all your opinion and comment to discuss this blade are most welcome.. Attached Images

27th March 2010, 03:34 AM	#11
hanggoye Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 34	more picture for this keris Attached Images

28th March 2010, 07:24 AM	#21
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	CARITA (javanese version) Just for comparison, this is "carita keprabon" or literally means "royal carita", one variant of among dhapurs of caritas in javanese keris world... Usually carita dhapur is 11 luks or more... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

25th March 2010, 01:03 PM	#2
hanggoye Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 34	any idea from you guys bout this blade??i really need to know more bout this keris..any comment are most welcome..

25th March 2010, 03:42 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Judging from the gandik style and ganja, I think this is a Kelantanese carita. The secondary fullers extending to the fourth luk is unusual. I've never seen anything like that before. It has a disconcerting effect as it is like a end-luk that terminates to the right.

26th March 2010, 12:01 PM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I totally agree with kai Wee and David....

27th March 2010, 01:17 AM	#7
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Woah, sorry guys but hold your horses a second. This one looks way more Pattani to me than Kelantan. The ganja is a bit taller than most but overall its very Pattani. The sheath is also much more Pattani. Hanggoye, is the blade original to the sheath? Would be nice to see the hilt but I'm 90% certain this keris came from north of the border...

27th March 2010, 02:53 AM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Imho, this is a keris cherita (cerita/carita) from Pattani.. with its fuller and base features.. a Northern Peninsular blade. The 'tebeng' sheath style could be misleading.. Does the blade sits well in its sheath? Can we have a picture from the top and front, while the blade is in its sheath..

27th March 2010, 04:27 AM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hmm... the taller ganja is one thing, but the way protrudes out and its prominence looked more Kelantanese to me, but must admit, this is a bit grey. I guess without the hilt, it is a bit difficult to tell the point of origin as well.

27th March 2010, 06:26 AM	#17
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Sorry to be a bother, but can we see the front of the sampir please. tks!

27th March 2010, 07:13 PM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Ganja, this is a good question that i have often wonder about as i discovered some time ago that a Javanese carita bears little characteristic similarities with the Peninsula form of the same name.

29th March 2010, 06:37 AM	#23
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Ultimately, when naming a pamor or dapur or whatever with respect to the keris, it must have to have certain meaning, the philosophy behind a name... I believe Javanese terminology such as Charita has its philosophy why it is named as such.... However, when we talk about Semenanjung keris terminology, very often the names come as description of what is seen physically, without any philosophy behind it. I am afraid those terminologies could have come from collectors or keris dealers only...

31st March 2010, 04:09 AM	#29
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Salam Pak Ganja, In Peninsula, if we try to define keris blades (old) based on geographical origin, we tend to split into 2 categories - keris Melayu and keris Jawa. Having said that, keris Jawa is easier to categorize as it has pakems, tangguh and also a lot of reference to go back to. But then when it comes to keris Melayu (Bugis included), we wud be having big problems. No one can tell for sure whether its a Trengganu, or Perak or Kelantan/Pattani piece. No record whatsoever about empu that can be traced back, say to 200 years. Sulawesi is a different matter, because we somewhat can tell the wesi used, the garap style, blade profile and thru experience - tanting to check the bobot. That also no one can tell for sure..... If we use dress as an indicator, I think the chances of our tangguhan to be correct is almost .... well... none