Kris #3

[punal]

Provenance and age on this kris please?
Pommel is made of carabao horn.

Sword's Dimensions:
OAL: 25"
Blade:18 1/2"
Width: 1 1/4"
Thickness:1/2"

[Battara]

I believe you and I have discussed this in the past. I would guess Tausug and late 19th century.

[nechesh]

Jose, given the smaller size and the straigth line of the gangya, couldn't this be a somewhat older kris than that?

[punal]

Originally Posted by Battara

I believe you and I have discussed this in the past. I would guess Tausug and late 19th century.

Battara,
Yes we have, I happened to include this kris on group of sword photos that I posted and revised yesterday. Someone saw it, and ask me if I could post it again.

[Bill]

If you look to what Cato writes in Moro Swords, I would think this is what he refers to as a "cross-over" between both the Maranao and Maguindanao. That really doesn't make sence to me, I tend to think it might be better to accept it just as a Mindanao kris, at least untill someone comes up with a better theory. In my opinion, the file work is somewhat a indicator of age. Although there is so many variables, in general, I think the better the file work, the newer it is. My guess at age would be early 19thC.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Jose, given the smaller size and the straigth line of the gangya, couldn't this be a somewhat older kris than that?

You bring up a good point, Nechesh. Although this is one mark of an early kris according to Cato, I have seen a few 17th century ones that do not have straight gangas. Thus I question this assumption as being a definitive mark of older Moro kris, although any one characteristic by itself is not as definitive as several features, like, for example, if this kris also had a smaller head and the blade were smaller as well. From what I have seen and according to what Cato says, the jungayan pommel like this one developed by about the late 19th century and most were Tausug or at least in use in the Sulu Sultanate.

By the way, I also have an early 17th century kris that has a small head, smaller thinner blade with elongated waves (luk or luks), mechanical damascus central panel, and deep chiseling at the base of the blade (thanks Rsword ). Everything screams 17th century except one thing - the ganga - which is not straight. (May post pictures one day of it and the scabbard I made for it when I get the opportunity take pictures of it ).

The waves on this kris are not the type seen on early Moro kris, although it is possible that the blade is older than the pommel.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Battara

(May post pictures one day of it and the scabbard I made for it when I get the opportunity take pictures of it ).

Hey, can someone please drive up to Battara's? Pretty please!

I'm sure there are forumites who have an old, unused digicam lying around which they could sponsor in exchange for more forum pics from Battara...
(I'm working with a "vintage" second generation model myself, no problems.)

Regards,
Kai

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Battara

You bring up a good point, Nechesh. Although this is one mark of an early kris according to Cato, I have seen a few 17th century ones that do not have straight gangas. Thus I question this assumption as being a definitive mark of older Moro kris, although any one characteristic by itself is not as definitive as several features, like, for example, if this kris also had a smaller head and the blade were smaller as well. From what I have seen and according to what Cato says, the jungayan pommel like this one developed by about the late 19th century and most were Tausug or at least in use in the Sulu Sultanate.

By the way, I also have an early 17th century kris that has a small head, smaller thinner blade with elongated waves (luk or luks), mechanical damascus central panel, and deep chiseling at the base of the blade (thanks Rsword ). Everything screams 17th century except one thing - the ganga - which is not straight. (May post pictures one day of it and the scabbard I made for it when I get the opportunity take pictures of it ).

The waves on this kris are not the type seen on early Moro kris, although it is possible that the blade is older than the pommel.

Certainly one of the biggest problems in the study of these swords is that everyone is somewhat dependant in Cato as the main point of authority. This is not to say that he is necessarily wrong, but we certainly need more reference books on the subject. How 'bout it boys! (you know who i'm talkin' to)
I am glad you made your last statement because i have some doubts that this junggayan is original to the blade, so it could be a poor indicator of age and/or origin.

[Ian]

This one has a "beefier" blade and shallower luk than I would expect to see on an early 19th C. Mindanao kris. I agree with Nechesh that the hilt looks like a later replacement on a fairly old blade.

Nice example. Thanks for sharing it with us, Punal.

[MABAGANI]

Re: kris timeline- the heavy scholarly research was done by Najeeb M. Saleeby, Cesar Adib Majul, James F. Warren and Ruurdje Laarhoven etc. but details need to be sifted and referenced as their works relate to the evolution of the kris. An interesting find, deals with William Dampier the explorer pirate as he sailed Mindanao in the 17th century, his crew was attacked by natives with kris in which they "hacked and stabbed", this points to the archaic type at least existing during the period.
My question to keris collectors would be the historical relationship of Mindanao and Sulu to Malacca, Johore and Sumatra because the Muslim royals trace their heritage to these regions in the early 16th century.
Any scholarly books you can cite would be of help.