Turkey Swords - C17th England

[Triarii]

Hi,

Reading about 1630s English militia and they - pikemen and musketeers - are recommended to have "a sword right Turkey with a good basket hilt".

Any idea what a 'Turkey' sword would be in this context?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Triarii

Hi,

Reading about 1630s English militia and they - pikemen and musketeers - are recommended to have "a sword right Turkey with a good basket hilt".

Any idea what a 'Turkey' sword would be in this context?

While I dont have an exact reference handy, it seems most likely that was a colloquial expression meaning loosely a 'curved blade'. This is in line with the Scottish term 'turcael' referring to same, and a Scottish basket hilt.

It seems that Scots while on campaign as mercenaries in Europe had occasion to have basket hilts mounted with curved saber blades which they compared of course to those used by the Turks.

[Teisani]

Maybe this link can be of help: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3955
There's a nice example of a Ottoman sabre blade on a basket-hilt.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the link Teisani, we had some great discussions in those days!

Looking further, "Scottish Weapons & Fortifications" , Ed. David H.Caldwell, 1981, has some key detail, with this image on p.169 (fig. 73) showing a basket hilt from c.1646, but these had been of course in use for some time. In these times the 'basket hilt' was referred to as 'Irish hilt' as in English the 'Gaelic' was the denominator. These types of hilts had been in use in England much earlier and did not become regarded as Scottish until well into the 17th c. as the true Scottish forms developed.

In the attached footnote from Claude Blairs most important paper, "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" the usage of the term 'Turky' referring to a type of blade is noted in the Francis Markham work of 1622, "Five Decades of Epistles of Warre", it is noted that the Turkie and Bilboe are the best.

Here can be seen the kind of colloquial terms used as the term Bilboe refers to the Port of Bilbao in northern Spain where blades from Toledo and Spanish centers were exported. Even in Shakespeare the term 'bilbo' was used to refer to a 'good blade'.
With the Turky reference, this simply an eponym for curved blade, with the Ottoman or Turkish blades being the most recognizable types in these times.

Note in the footnote, 'semetaries or turky blades'.
This of course would point to the transliterated word 'scimitar' which in the same manner became used for a curved sword. It is generally held that the word was mistranslated in Italian version referring to the Persian shamshir, with the etymology a bit more complex.

it would be interesting to have a discussion of these curious colloquial terms which often evolved into 'collectors terms' such as 'sinclair saber' etc.

[Victrix]

There were Scottish mercenaries fighting Ottomans in Hungary, and some apparently settled there permanently. See: https://www.hungarianottomanwars.com...the-hungaries/. Maybe they developed an affection for the Ottoman style blades.

[Triarii]

Jim,
I'd forgotten that the Sandal Castle example was curved - I bought the Caldwell book for the basket hilt article too. Good spot. I think in Mazansky its a close up photo so the blade isn't obvious, though he deliberately focusses on hilts.

The Markham quote which links to the term 'scimitar' had passed me by, so thankyou for that too.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Triarii

Jim,
I'd forgotten that the Sandal Castle example was curved - I bought the Caldwell book for the basket hilt article too. Good spot. I think in Mazansky its a close up photo so the blade isn't obvious, though he deliberately focuses on hilts.

The Markham quote which links to the term 'scimitar' had passed me by, so thankyou for that too.

While Mazansky is a great book for basket hilt classification, it lacks salient details on many important elements that are key to the forms. As often the case, and noted by AVB Norman in his book "The Rapier and Smallsword 1400-1820" (1980) he was focused on hilts as blades were constantly from other sources and not always inherently associated with the hilt.
Mazansky's goal was to establish a classification system for this genre of sword hilts, much in the Oakeshott manner, and in accord with Norman's important reference. Interestingly Norman was working with him as he wrote the book.

Thank you as well, for the interesting question, which really helps these kinds of words in references become more meaningful in further research.

[Triarii]

Does anyone have any of the wording of the full sections on the Turky / semitarie swords from FH Cripps-Day Fragmenta Armamentaria II please?
I'd like to see / quote at least the contextual text of one of the relevant sections. If the words are used together then it (to my mind) provides a definite contemporary account - together with the Sandal Castle sword - of curved blades / Turcaels being used and established in England during the late C16th, through early C17th militia ordinances and potentially on into the mid C17th, including during the Civil Wars (my main interest).

It's also of interest because the description aligns with the English masters of defence view on using cutting weapons vice the longer and narrower bladed rapiers or 'tucks' - whether they use thrusting or cut and thrust blades - which are arriving from the continent and seen in many European battle paintings eg the works of Peter Snayers.

I've been looking about to try and find the volume referred to, but it doesn't seem to be actually available, even on JSTOR.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Triarii

Does anyone have any of the wording of the full sections on the Turky / semitarie swords from FH Cripps-Day Fragmenta Armamentaria II please?
I'd like to see / quote at least the contextual text of one of the relevant sections. If the words are used together then it (to my mind) provides a definite contemporary account - together with the Sandal Castle sword - of curved blades / Turcaels being used and established in England during the late C16th, through early C17th militia ordinances and potentially on into the mid C17th, including during the Civil Wars (my main interest).

It's also of interest because the description aligns with the English masters of defence view on using cutting weapons vice the longer and narrower bladed rapiers or 'tucks' - whether they use thrusting or cut and thrust blades - which are arriving from the continent and seen in many European battle paintings eg the works of Peter Snayers.

I've been looking about to try and find the volume referred to, but it doesn't seem to be actually available, even on JSTOR.

It seems that FH Cripps-Day was very much aligned with Sir Guy Francis Laking and wrote a supplemental volume with his 1925 "A Record of European Armor and Arms Through Seven Centuries".

As you note, it is extremely hard to find these volumes but it does seem there are reprints and on Amazon and others, copies of such material can be acquired 'on demand'. I did not go further into 'the web' but it does seem that some networking might lead to possibilities. As these are typically in various volumes in these works, the trick is to acquire the right one and availability of volumes does not always include the one you need.

Also Ken Trotman books in England is probably one of the best sources for rare and obscure material on these kinds of topics. I have books on the English Civil Wars, Hounslow etc. but these do not provide the kind of specifics you need in their notes on arms.

Cornelistromp here is likely the best contact for these kinds of esoteric arms material as well.

[Triarii]

Jim,

Yes - identifying if the book that appears in a search is the right volume is the problem. None matched the exact title. The Royal Armouries have a copy.

I've found Markham (some good stuff on waistbelts /girdles and baldricks too) and RR Sharpe, which mentions Turky and Turkey blades and Irish and open hilts, so there's another link that the basket hilts had 'Turky' blades.

[Triarii]

Coming back to Turkey swords and Irish hilts, I had some comms with the Wakefield Museum staff about the Sandal Castle basket hilted sword and unfortunately the curve to the blade is bend damage rather than a curved blade.