Can you identify these swords

kharmachanic · 13th March 2010, 07:57 PM

Aloha,
My father recently passed away, and in going through his "pack rat hovel" I re-discovered a couple of items. these used to be our "sword fighting" implements when we were all kids.
As far as I can tell/remember these were discovered by my dad in his uncles house after he passed away. My great uncle was a member of the knights of Pythias in KEY WEST Fla. My ancestors were some of the original settlers of Key West, having moved from The Bahamas, and previously from S. Carolina during the Revolutionary war.
Best I have been able to assertain is they are from the late 1800's, they dont seem to fall into the normal cerimonial swords I have seen form the knights of pythias.
They have the following engraving on the swords, Luckhaus $ Gunther - Remscheid, and what appears to be a sheep with a cross topped standard enclosed in a circle. The long swords are numbered 500 and 509, the short sword has the same info but the circle around the sheep is broken and not solid and its number is 555.
The long swords are 30" in lengths and have a non sharpened edge. the Short sword is 18 1/4" long.

everyone that could have provided more info is gone now so I am trying to find out a little more about them form whatever resource I can find. So here I am.
let me know if you can help .
I put one image here and the others on a webpage as I did not want to put 12 images in this space.

Thanks

here is the link to the others.

link to the swords in question

carlos · 13th March 2010, 08:58 PM

I think they are machetes from Span-Am war in Cuba. They usually wear blades from German makers.
Very good pieces, I love this type of machetes.
Thanks
carlos

Rick · 13th March 2010, 09:36 PM

I like these, I think you've got something good there ; the clip point bowie looks formidable .
Someone in your family was in the Span Am war perhaps ?
Was Key West a disembarkation point for troops ?

Would these have been used by Spanish forces Carlos ?
Officer grade ?

carlos · 13th March 2010, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I like these, I think you've got something good there ; the clip point bowie looks formidable .
Someone in your family was in the Span Am war perhaps ?
Was Key West a disembarkation point for troops ?

Would these have been used by Spanish forces Carlos ?
Officer grade ?

Yes, I think is very possible that were used by spanish officers. I have this link with very good information of machetes in Cuba.
best regards
carlos
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf

Rick · 13th March 2010, 10:51 PM

Thank you Carlos .

kharmachanic · 14th March 2010, 01:17 AM

Would these be considered machete even though they have a blunt "unsharpened" edge? OR am I thinking purely in the "cutting down the sugar cain and hacking the way through the jungle "machete" "

I am supposed to be getting a copy of the family history and I will scan it to see of any connection to the spanish american war. It is possible based on their geographic location during that time.

Thanks for your information.. keep it coming..

Rick · 14th March 2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kharmachanic

Would these be considered machete even though they have a blunt "unsharpened" edge? OR am I thinking purely in the "cutting down the sugar cain and hacking the way through the jungle "machete" "

I am supposed to be getting a copy of the family history and I will scan it to see of any connection to the spanish american war. It is possible based on their geographic location during that time.

Thanks for your information.. keep it coming..

The little sheath knife is called a Puuko .

When you talk of 'unsharpened edge' are you referring to the points or the entire blade length ?

Could be that if you played with them as a kid someone might have rebated the edges for a modicum of safety .

KuKulzA28 · 14th March 2010, 07:17 PM

the two long ones look like cutachas... the swords of the machete-world. Here's an article: The Cutacha
by Carter Rila - "El Cutachero".

kharmachanic · 14th March 2010, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The little sheath knife is called a Puuko .

When you talk of 'unsharpened edge' are you referring to the points or the entire blade length ?

Could be that if you played with them as a kid someone might have rebated the edges for a modicum of safety .

The two long swords appear to have never had an edge, now I am not very familiar with old style blades, but when I look at a modern KATANA with a true edge. These are in no way sharpened, the long leading edge is more of a rounded edge, however the points (short thrusting edge) appears as though it may have had a slight edge on it. This is part of what made me think they might be ceremonial in nature. IT could be that just not being maintained through the years the edge could have become dull, but does not appear that way.
This is what makes me wonder about their being a machete.

Rick · 14th March 2010, 10:44 PM

Let's call them Cutachas then .

How they became dull is anyones guess .

VANDOO · 15th March 2010, 01:49 AM

BETTER CLOSEUP PICTURES OF THE POMMELS AND THE MARKING ON THE BLADES MIGHT HELP GET A MORE ACCURATE I.D.
IT IS INTERESTING THAT ALL THREE POMMELS APPEAR TO BE DIFFERENT. THEY MAY BE DRESS SWORDS WHICH WOULD NOT NEED TO BE SHARPENED. THEY ARE IN SWORD/MACHETE FORM BUT NOT REALLY INTENDED FOR WORK. IF THE OWNER WANTED HE COULD HAVE SHARPENED THEM BUT THEY LIKELY CAME WITH A DULL EDGE. ARE THE GRIPS BONE OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL AND IS THE POMMEL AND GAURDS WHITE METAL OR PLATED?. AN INTERESTING THREESOME I LOOK FOWARD TO LEARNING ANY OF THEIR HISTORY YOU FIND OUT.

kharmachanic · 15th March 2010, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

BETTER CLOSEUP PICTURES OF THE POMMELS AND THE MARKING ON THE BLADES MIGHT HELP GET A MORE ACCURATE I.D.
IT IS INTERESTING THAT ALL THREE POMMELS APPEAR TO BE DIFFERENT. THEY MAY BE DRESS SWORDS WHICH WOULD NOT NEED TO BE SHARPENED. THEY ARE IN SWORD/MACHETE FORM BUT NOT REALLY INTENDED FOR WORK. IF THE OWNER WANTED HE COULD HAVE SHARPENED THEM BUT THEY LIKELY CAME WITH A DULL EDGE. ARE THE GRIPS BONE OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL AND IS THE POMMEL AND GAURDS WHITE METAL OR PLATED?. AN INTERESTING THREESOME I LOOK FOWARD TO LEARNING ANY OF THEIR HISTORY YOU FIND OUT.

That is what I was thinking too they may have been dress swords or something more ceremonial then utilitarian. The grips do appear to be bone/ivory (?) or some similar material. As far as the metal, this is not plated, at least my untrained eye cannot see that it is. What ever it is it is solid and the actual metal, it is a gold in color, and the parts that are not tranished (patinaed) can have quite a luster to them. What were they using during that era for ceremonial weaponry? gold? They were for sure poured into a mold as I can see some mold marks (reside/sepage) on the pommels.

is there anyway to determine the approx age via the serial numbers? 500/509/555 I have seen other listings for that same manufacture with numbers in the 2000 and 3000 range.

I have post some more images, close ups of the pommels and handles. I forgot the closeups of the blade markings but I will post those tomorrow.
There is about 6 close ups of each item in the new page.

NEW SWORD IMAGES

VANDOO · 15th March 2010, 05:53 AM

ALL THREE WEAPONS APPEAR TO HAVE BONE GRIPS. ONE POMMEL IS OF SOME SORT OF MYTHACAL MONSTER WITH SCALES. THE SECOND ONE APPEARS TO BE A DOG HEAD AND THE LAST MOST LIKELY A LION. THE FITTINGS APPEAR TO BE CAST BRASS OR BRONZE, BRASS BEING MY BEST GUESS. THE ONLY THING THE NUMBERS ON THE BLADES MAKE ME THINK OF IS THAT THAT ARE FACTORY MADE BLADES NOT HAND FORGED. THATS ABOUT ALL I CAN ADD PERHAPS SOME MEMBER WILL HAVE BETTER INFO ON THEM ESPECIALLY THE MAKERS MARKS ON THE BLADES.

migueldiaz · 15th March 2010, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlos

Yes, I think is very possible that were used by spanish officers. I have this link with very good information of machetes in Cuba.
best regards
carlos
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf

Carlos, thanks for that link

Thus the one that just finished on eBay but which remained unsold [item 230446603410, and pics are below] would then be a Cuban or Puerto Rican "MACHETE DEL TIPO “DE GUANABACOA” EN PRODUCCIÓN TARDÍA, HACIA 1880." per page 2 of the link above.

Thanks again.

Rick · 15th March 2010, 04:42 PM

Knight head pommel .
http://arms2armor.com/Swords/pythias1.htm
Just tossing this into the mix .

Hotspur · 16th March 2010, 06:00 PM

I am late to this thread and in going through some old picture files, then made some rounds of articles I had bookmarked over time, then realize in reading this thread that these sources have already been brought up. Hal's Therion site is a nice visit for lots of articles and one I have revisited often over the years.

The panther/lion form seem to reflect the saddle embellishments of northern Mexico. Somewhere I have pictures of this fancy one that surfaced on David Condon's pages and then finally sold by the ebayer pcay after several goes. I know I have the Condon pictures somewhere but the ebay pictures from pcay are always a treat and I found that folder first in my searches.

I'm not sure how we got to Pythias forms Rick but I have lots of stuff on those as well. I do also have a picture archive of the German made eagle/chicken head machetes, as well as a few of the American made Collins birds.

The Condon sword was one I had thought of buying at one point and then was a bit shocked to see it at another seller on ebay but so is the way of the world.

Cheers

GC

kharmachanic · 20th March 2010, 05:17 AM

Thanks for all of your help.
I will update the thread if I should uncover anything prevelant.

Thanks again.

13th March 2010, 07:57 PM	#1
kharmachanic Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 5	Can you identify these swords Aloha, My father recently passed away, and in going through his "pack rat hovel" I re-discovered a couple of items. these used to be our "sword fighting" implements when we were all kids. As far as I can tell/remember these were discovered by my dad in his uncles house after he passed away. My great uncle was a member of the knights of Pythias in KEY WEST Fla. My ancestors were some of the original settlers of Key West, having moved from The Bahamas, and previously from S. Carolina during the Revolutionary war. Best I have been able to assertain is they are from the late 1800's, they dont seem to fall into the normal cerimonial swords I have seen form the knights of pythias. They have the following engraving on the swords, Luckhaus $ Gunther - Remscheid, and what appears to be a sheep with a cross topped standard enclosed in a circle. The long swords are numbered 500 and 509, the short sword has the same info but the circle around the sheep is broken and not solid and its number is 555. The long swords are 30" in lengths and have a non sharpened edge. the Short sword is 18 1/4" long. everyone that could have provided more info is gone now so I am trying to find out a little more about them form whatever resource I can find. So here I am. let me know if you can help . I put one image here and the others on a webpage as I did not want to put 12 images in this space. Thanks here is the link to the others. link to the swords in question

15th March 2010, 04:42 PM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Pythias Knight head pommel . http://arms2armor.com/Swords/pythias1.htm Just tossing this into the mix .

16th March 2010, 06:00 PM	#16
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	I am late to this thread and in going through some old picture files, then made some rounds of articles I had bookmarked over time, then realize in reading this thread that these sources have already been brought up. Hal's Therion site is a nice visit for lots of articles and one I have revisited often over the years. The panther/lion form seem to reflect the saddle embellishments of northern Mexico. Somewhere I have pictures of this fancy one that surfaced on David Condon's pages and then finally sold by the ebayer pcay after several goes. I know I have the Condon pictures somewhere but the ebay pictures from pcay are always a treat and I found that folder first in my searches. I'm not sure how we got to Pythias forms Rick but I have lots of stuff on those as well. I do also have a picture archive of the German made eagle/chicken head machetes, as well as a few of the American made Collins birds. The Condon sword was one I had thought of buying at one point and then was a bit shocked to see it at another seller on ebay but so is the way of the world. Cheers GC Attached Images

20th March 2010, 05:17 AM	#17
kharmachanic Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 5	thanks for the help!! Thanks for all of your help. I will update the thread if I should uncover anything prevelant. Thanks again.

13th March 2010, 08:58 PM	#2
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 738	I think they are machetes from Span-Am war in Cuba. They usually wear blades from German makers. Very good pieces, I love this type of machetes. Thanks carlos

13th March 2010, 09:36 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I like these, I think you've got something good there ; the clip point bowie looks formidable . Someone in your family was in the Span Am war perhaps ? Was Key West a disembarkation point for troops ? Would these have been used by Spanish forces Carlos ? Officer grade ?

13th March 2010, 10:51 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Thank you Carlos .

14th March 2010, 01:17 AM	#6
kharmachanic Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 5	Would these be considered machete even though they have a blunt "unsharpened" edge? OR am I thinking purely in the "cutting down the sugar cain and hacking the way through the jungle "machete" " I am supposed to be getting a copy of the family history and I will scan it to see of any connection to the spanish american war. It is possible based on their geographic location during that time. Thanks for your information.. keep it coming..

14th March 2010, 07:17 PM	#8
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	the two long ones look like cutachas... the swords of the machete-world. Here's an article: The Cutacha by Carter Rila - "El Cutachero".

14th March 2010, 10:44 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Let's call them Cutachas then . How they became dull is anyones guess .

15th March 2010, 01:49 AM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BETTER CLOSEUP PICTURES OF THE POMMELS AND THE MARKING ON THE BLADES MIGHT HELP GET A MORE ACCURATE I.D. IT IS INTERESTING THAT ALL THREE POMMELS APPEAR TO BE DIFFERENT. THEY MAY BE DRESS SWORDS WHICH WOULD NOT NEED TO BE SHARPENED. THEY ARE IN SWORD/MACHETE FORM BUT NOT REALLY INTENDED FOR WORK. IF THE OWNER WANTED HE COULD HAVE SHARPENED THEM BUT THEY LIKELY CAME WITH A DULL EDGE. ARE THE GRIPS BONE OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL AND IS THE POMMEL AND GAURDS WHITE METAL OR PLATED?. AN INTERESTING THREESOME I LOOK FOWARD TO LEARNING ANY OF THEIR HISTORY YOU FIND OUT.

15th March 2010, 05:53 AM	#13
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ALL THREE WEAPONS APPEAR TO HAVE BONE GRIPS. ONE POMMEL IS OF SOME SORT OF MYTHACAL MONSTER WITH SCALES. THE SECOND ONE APPEARS TO BE A DOG HEAD AND THE LAST MOST LIKELY A LION. THE FITTINGS APPEAR TO BE CAST BRASS OR BRONZE, BRASS BEING MY BEST GUESS. THE ONLY THING THE NUMBERS ON THE BLADES MAKE ME THINK OF IS THAT THAT ARE FACTORY MADE BLADES NOT HAND FORGED. THATS ABOUT ALL I CAN ADD PERHAPS SOME MEMBER WILL HAVE BETTER INFO ON THEM ESPECIALLY THE MAKERS MARKS ON THE BLADES.