Proper Bali Grip?

[David]

In this excellent thread on fighting with keris the proper grip was demonstrated in two sets of photos on pages 2 and 3 (thank you Alan and Zartane):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=keris+grip
One set of photos shows this grip with a typical Javanese hilt form and the other with the pistol grip style hilt common on Bugis and Peninsula blades. With both these styles of hilts i find this grip completely comfortable and natural. I have also found this grip comfortable with various other hilts from Madura and with the various Javanese Raksasa hilts i own.
I have a number of Balinese keris with at least 6 distinctly different hilt forms. For me NONE of these hilts seems to comfortably accomodate this particular grip. These hilts are all too big for it, especially at the base where they often widen, sometimes with large seluts. It just seems impossible to hold the hilt with thumb and forefinger on the blade. So, do Balinese hilts call for a completely different grip?

[Rick]

I don't think they really call for any grip at all when they have reached this size David.

IMHO I think what these handles represent is the transition from the keris as weapon to the keris as status symbol.

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

IMHO I think what these handles represent is the transition from the keris as weapon to the keris as status symbol.

With the fancier hilts i would tend to agree Rick, but it is just as difficult to use this grip with the simpler planar style hilts and the "hair" wrapped ones. Neither of these seem to hold the same status quality of, say, the jeweled Bayu hilts or other elaborately carved hilts. Yet they are still too big to use this grip and some of them (the ones i have at least) seem VERY weapon-ready.

[Rick]

Maybe you choke up on the handle?
See pics:

Included is a pair of Bondolan type hilts; one new and one old; the smaller handle is 3.5 inches long and usable.
How many of the old (19thC. and older) handles are large; I don't know.
Looks like a visit to Tammens is in order.

[David]

Hi Rick. I do find with my bondolan style hilts that a close approximation of this grip is possible if you choke up on the hilt a bit. However, while the thumb comfortably fits in the pecetan on one side, when chocked up the forefinger does not on the other, which was my understanding of the Javanese grip.

[A. G. Maisey]

I think that this question is really a part of another question:- why are Bali keris bigger?

I haven't got very big hands---short fingers, square palm, thick.

There is no way I can hold a Bali keris the way I was taught to hold a Jawa keris.

I rather like your idea Rick, of linking the grip size, which of course reflects the keris size, to symbolism. I don't know we can just say "status", because you can get some pretty villagey keris that are pretty big, but I am inclined to think that the size of the Bali keris links to symbolism, amongst other things.

Keris are worn differently in Bali than in other places, and Balinese dress is different to the dress in Jawa and other places. In Jawa the sarung ends at the waist, the keris is worn at the waist, but in Bali a formal sarung comes up to the chest, and the keris is worn at the back with it sticking up above the shoulder. Worn like this a Jawa size keris would be out of proportion, it would look odd, it would possibly be difficult to draw. I wonder if keris size in Bali developed along with the wearing of the sarung in a different way?

Yeah, sure, in old Bali men leaving their villages had to go armed with a keris. Old bali was a pretty hairy place from all accounts. The various rulers at war with one another more often than not, lots of strife. It was a place to be avoided.Small communities cannot afford to lose members, so the members of a small community have a duty to the community to try to preserve their own lives. Thus you got outside the village you take your keris. Don't do it :- get fined.

Now this chest high sarung would not have been worn all the time, a normal waist high sarung would have been worn for everyday use more often so how was the super-size Bali keris worn then?

Well, maybe it wasn't worn, maybe it was carried. One thing you see often in Bali and Jawa is that men carrying knives that you might think would be logically stuck into the waist band of trousers, or into the waist fold of a sarung, carry these knives in their left hand.Maybe the big bali keris was carried this way under normal conditions too.

Some years ago I attempted to discuss Bali keris size with a very well known keris authority. I put the question:- why is the Bali keris bigger than the Jawa keris?

His answer?

It is not.

Now this man is not a fool, he has lived in Bali for a number of years, and lived in Indonesia for years, but here he is saying something that is apparently ridiculous. I could not get him to expand on this statement. He is extremely unforthcoming in matters of the keris, because he is always on the verge of publishing something, and in his case this relates directly to income.

I've often thought about what he meant by saying that the Bali keris is not bigger than the Jawa keris. Possibly he meant that proportionately it is not bigger. Generally speaking, Balinese men tend to be physically bigger than Javanese men. Maybe as a proportion of body size both keris types are about the same in size.

If this is so, and the keris size increased along with body size, then it is possible that at some point in development it was noted that the pesi had become robust enough to sustain side pressure from slashes, or thrusts gone wrong. As pesi strength increased , length increased, weight increased, the Bali keris might have become too heavy to be used effectively the way a Jawa keris was used, so a different method of use evolved, which involved only gripping the handle.

Look at the Bali keris handle:- it is designed to provide a firm, non-slip grip. It is meant to be held firmly, not just act as a guide and balance point as is the case with a Jawa keris.

I think that we are probably looking at a completely different method of use associated with the Bali keris than with the Jawa keris.

At this remove it might be impossible to substantiate this.

Dances and martial arts use cannot be held to reflect normal combat use of 200 years ago.

However, it seems to me that if a handle is made in a way that indicates ideal form for a non-slip grip, even when the user's hand and the handle itself are dripping blood, then that handle is meant to be firmly held, not just act as a guide.

[David]

Thanks Alan, very interesting fuel for thought.

[Rick]

Well, I took a trip through Tammens and found a relatively consistent range of sizes . Unfortunately Tammens does not even guess at the age of the hilts shown but there seem to be essentially two sizes; 10-12 cm. and 14-16 cm.

You both are correct that my version of the Jawa grip is inefficient for these blades; and the blade example I used to illustrate was of the humped ganja style thus enhancing any chance of acheiving the Jawa grip.

This brings me to another question; why are not Bali keris more securely attached to their grips?
I realise that as a collector my keris grips would be more loosely attached to prevent splitting or damaging the handles; but what about in real conditions; what about blade twist during use?

One would think that without the stabilising effect of the hand in the Jawa style grip that the Bali keris would have gone the way of the Moro pieces; into a flattened tang to prevent twist.

[A. G. Maisey]

Problem is Rick, we don't really know how Bali handles were attached way back when they were actually using the things.

I've had a couple of Bali keris that had the handles fixed with something like damar, so maybe this was general 100 years+ ago, but I don't know for sure.

If damar was used it would have given a very firm fix to the handle. Any tang that is set in damar will split the handle and bend the tang and blade before it ever comes loose. Sword tangs were set in damar, and those tangs are often not all that long. No way you can get a tang set in damar free without heating the blade to soften the damar.

This being so, there was no need to go to the Moro keris system.In any case, Bali blades are not near as substantial as Moro type blades.

[Rick]

I was unaware of Damar Alan; a plant resin ?

I guess this brings up the question of differing fighting systems with regards to Jawa and Bali.
The different grip could possibly be used for the overhand blow, or strike as well as the thrust.

[David]

Alan may be right about this. I also have a Bali keris that was fastened with some natural resin materal like damar and it was certainly a hardy grip. It took quite a bit of heating and wiggling to remove it. I would image that hilt would have remained extremely stable through use without ever gripping the actual blade.

[Emanuel]

Hello,

The last three comments above brought to mind this picture from http://old.blades.free.fr/home.htm
It shows a grip different from that of Jawa keris, as well as a common? wear of Balinese keris.

Regards,
Emanuel

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Emanuel, it does.

Problem is that these pics used to get set up and posed by the photographer. I don't think they can be regarded as 100% representative of reality. Actually, I've seen this pic somewhere. Can you save me from looking and give us a date?

[Emanuel]

Hello Alan,

You are quite right that the pose may be staged. The picture is on the website I indicated, and I remember seeing it in a book as well, but I cannot recollect which one at the moment. Unfortunately I cannot provide a date for it, as I do not even know its source.
I realize that the relief depiction on the [forgot the name] temple shows the Empu/Deity gripping the blade between his fingers, but I vaguely recall seeing a tapestry or painting of a Javanese battle which showed the warriors grasping the ukiran in a closed fist. I will look for it.
Wouldn't old paintings/depictions offer a reliable look at common wear? Of course, the subjects of these depictions would have dressed for the occasion I guess...

The few keris I have are of a Javanese style, so I cannot contribute to the discussion of Balinese hilts. I was thinking, however that a large Solo ukiran could also be held quite firmly without pinching the gonjo. It feels comfortable in hand. I have seen the grip you showed in a few books as well, and I understand that it is the accepted way of holding Jawa keris, but could this be a result of dance poses. I'm sorry to ramble like this, but pinching the gonjo between the index finger and the thumb seems like a very delicate way of gripping a weapon, akin to the intricate hand/finger movement in dances. I do not practice any martial art with weapons, so these are purely amateurish conjectures on my part.


Warn regards,
Emanuel

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm no martial artist either Emanuel, and frankly, I seriously doubt that we can look towards present day martial arts practice as a guide to how a weapon was used more than 200 years ago (in the case of Jawa).

I base my ideas on the grip used for a Javanese keris upon personal instruction from perhaps one of the last professionals to use a keris as a weapon; what I was taught seems to be in broad agreement with the pinch grip illustrated in , I think Hill, and possibly some other places.

The Javanese relief carvings show a different grip, used with a fore-runner of the modern keris, but in one relief at Panataran, it would be possible with considerable imagination to see a pinch grip in use.

When it comes right down to it, we can really only speculate about how a Javanese keris was held and used when it was actually used as a serious weapon, because by the beginning of the 19th century it had already become something other than purely a weapon.

However, the Balinese keris is a cat of a different colour. It was still used as a weapon up until the Dutch took control of South Bali in the early 20th. century.

Even though use of the keris as a weapon , comes closer to our own time, in Bali, it seems we still don't know very much about how it was held to be used. Again, we are only speculating, but I do think that in the case of Bali, we might be on slightly firmer ground than with Jawa. Nobody wraps a handle with non-slip twine, nor cuts deep non-slip notches in a handle, if that handle is not meant to be firmly held.

In respect of wear of the keris, I have worn a sarung as "at home dress" for most of my adult life. I can assure you that a Balinese keris stuck into the back of a sarung as it is in that picture , would not stay there until you got out the front gate.Even with a setagen, as used by Javanese people when in formal dress, I think it is doubtful that a Bali size keris would be practical to wear in this position.

[VVV]

The picture above of the Lombok Warriors is dated 1870-1890, photographer unknown, in the picture archive of Tropen.
Here are two additional pictures I found on the Internet.
The first is also from Lombok, but 1947.
The second I have no info on date etc.

Michael

[David]

The photo on the left looks like it is from the seires of of pics by Cartier-Bresson of the Barong dance. This may indicate correct grip, but then it is a dance, not actual combat, so it is hard to say. In the photo on the right the grip looks different. I can't tell for sure, but it seems that the forefinger is placed on the blabe. I tried to blow this up, but it pixelated too much to tell. The grip used by one of the two warriors is in fact a posed photo, but i wonder if the photographer would go so far as to tell the guy how to hold his keris. It is just as likely that he would hold it in a natural way for him even if the photographer positioned them in other ways.

[VVV]

Yes,

He has his forefinger at the blade on the last picture.
So 2 hilt only grip and 1 forefinger on the blade grip so far.
I tried a couple of Balinese Keris and I would have prefered using the guiding and stabilizing forefinger on the blade grip for stabbing.


Michael

[Rick]

The last photo enlarged .

[David]

Thanks Rick. Must say, that is an impressive looking blade. I count 17 luks.

[Rick]

Yeh, it was worth enlarging just to get a closer look at that blade.

Looks to me like he's choking up on the handle.

[Lew]

I have a few Balinese keris and it appears that the saber grip is the only comfortable way to grasp these keris.


Lew

[David]

Yep, he is choked-up and in that position the hand /wrist orientation is quite a bite different from the Bali grip.
Hey...your posting in the middle of the day...why don't you get a job or something?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

Hey...your posting in the middle of the day...why don't you get a job or something?

You are too; does the boss know ?

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

You are too; does the boss know ?

eerrrr...i am working, can't you see that!

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for the dating on that picture, Michael.

You know, I've been giving a bit of thought to this grip question.I must admit that this particular aspect of keris grip is something I've never given much thought to previously.

Is it possible that although there may have been one generally accepted "ideal" way in which to grip the handle of a keris, either Bali keris, or Jawa keris, or possibly any other keris, individuals may have varied that "ideal" grip to suit themselves?

Or, alternatively, different hand positions were employed depending upon the way in which the keris was being used at the time?

Just maybe, there was no universal "one way suits all" grip.

Over the years I have come across two or three Bugis type keris where the handle had been turned in reverse position, and those handles had been fixed in place with damar. These keris gave every indication that they were direct from the area of use, not through a European dealer or collector. In one case, the handle had been shortened, and this keris with the shortened and reversed handle allows a very comfortable and useable grip.

Consider this:- used as a weapon, a keris is just a tool to do a job:- no more, no less.

A fork is a tool, and you've only got sit in a restaurant for ten minutes to see the multitude of different ways in which people employ a fork.There may be one ideal way to hold and use a fork, but that ideal way is not always used.

An axe is a tool, and an axe can be held in a number of different ways depending on the user, and depending on the job being done.

I'm inclined to think that if we had that magical time machine that could take us back and let us look at the way things really were, we might find that different people held their keris, and possibly used their keris, in different ways.

[drdavid]

Following on from Alan's comments you would also have to wonder whether the new owner of a keris would have tried a variety of handles to find the one best suited his hand. If you look at competitive fencers although the grips on their foils all look pretty similar, at the elite level they all vary subtly to suit the owners hands. As the keris became a less 'functional' tool this need for ideal grip would become less important and probably more stylised. I have no information to back any of this up and am just speculating on the 'form follows function' concept.
cheers
drd