Poincon Identification?

Pukka Bundook · 16th February 2018, 04:55 PM

Dear friends,
attached is a photo of a poincon found on a pair of 18th C Madrid gun barrels.

I have no information on Luis Santos, other than he was father to Juan Santos. Any further information would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

Richard.

fernando · 16th February 2018, 05:31 PM

Luis Santos. A student in Madrid of Juan Belén, Santos probably worked during a good part of the final quarter of the seventeenth century. Although his arms were superior, he was unfortunate in being the least outstanding of Belén's disciples. He taught his son, Juan Santos, and died in Madrid on 27 April 1721.
( From a History of SPANISH FIREARMS by James D. Lavin ).
BTW Richard, poinçon is more Frenchy; Spanish is punzon

.

fernando · 16th February 2018, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... Although his arms were superior, he was unfortunate in being the least outstanding of Belén's disciples...

The other two were Alonso Martinez and Nicolás Bis (German) the superior one, who invented the making of barrels with horse shoes steel.
(Compendio Historico de los Arcabuceros de Madrid, by Isidro Solér)

Fernando K · 16th February 2018, 08:28 PM

Hello

Ramiro Larrañaga, in "Historical synthesis of the Basque Armeria" n on page 267:

SANTOS, Luis. Arcabucero de Madrid, conde3 died on 4/27/1721. Contramarca of a rampant lion. He was the father of Juan Santos

Affectionately. Fernando K

PD Larañaga gives as a source to LAVIN, "History of Spanish Makers"

Fernando K · 16th February 2018, 08:58 PM

Hello

What amazes me is that Larrañaga (opus citatus), in the same page

SANTOS, Juan Arcabucero de Madrid, son of Luis Santos 1721-1745. Contramarca: a lion on the hind legs with a fleur-de-lis on the right front claw.

Apparently, the punch shows a lion with something in its right claw .....

Larrañaga gives as a source to Isidro Soler "Arcabuceros de Madrid"

Affectionately Fernando K

Pukka Bundook · 17th February 2018, 03:13 AM

Thank you for your replies and the information Gentlemen.

Fernando my friend,
I will be sure to remember Punzon in future.

Fernando K,

It is very kind of you to add further information.
I am a little puzzled about your last two lines. Very sorry but I am a bit thick at times!

Please may I ask you to clarify your meaning here?

"
Apparently, the punch shows a lion with something in its right claw .....

Larrañaga gives as a source to Isidro Soler "Arcabuceros de Madrid"

Do I take it that as the lion in the above photo has something different in it's paw, that it in some way differs from what we should expect?

Thank you for your time, my friend.

Richard.

fernando · 17th February 2018, 01:04 PM

Perhaps Richard, you should start by realizing that gunmakers often used more than one marking punzon, with slight variations; and that drawings pulled by book authors are not necessarily so exact as suc irons used.
If you compare the drawings in Lavin and Soler, you will notice that they are different; in Lavin, Luis's lion has some something in his paws and in Soler's he has nothing.
But if you look at actual irons that were used in those smiths guns, as illustrated and described in Catálogo de Arcabuceria Madrileña, you will see and read that both father and son marks have a fleur-de-lis in the right paw, although some time Luis doesn't use it. The more notable difference is that Juan used a radiant star in the top left corner, although his father also eventually used it.
... If i am not talking nonsense ... Fernando, tocayo ?

.

,

Fernando K · 17th February 2018, 04:18 PM

Hello

I think that with the elements that Fernando has uploaded, the issue is completely clarified

Affectionately Fernando K

Pukka Bundook · 17th February 2018, 08:36 PM

Thank you Gentlemen.

There appears quite a variety of stamps used. I had expected one to have been used rather than numerous closely related specimens.

Thank again for clarifying the position!

very best wishes,
Richard.

fernando · 17th February 2018, 09:54 PM

As long as it doesn't prevent you from sleeping, Rihard my friend

.

Fernando K · 18th February 2018, 11:59 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Santos

Hello

Here is a case of SANT0S gun with magnificient images

Fernando K

Pukka Bundook · 18th February 2018, 04:01 PM

Dear Fernando K,

Thank you for the link!

I find it very interesting that in this punzon, (See I remembered Fernado!)
The lion is holding in his paw what appears to be a bunch of flowers, the same as in the one I show in the opening post.
The only difference being the star is not present in the OP.
Actually, on looking at the punzon again in the OP I think I Do see a star....

As Jean -Luc's beautiful little pistol is by Juan Santos, and the above by Luis, it again shows a variation on what we see in the printed page, for both father and son.
All very interesting.

Very best wishes,

Richard.

16th February 2018, 04:55 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Poincon Identification? Dear friends, attached is a photo of a poincon found on a pair of 18th C Madrid gun barrels. I have no information on Luis Santos, other than he was father to Juan Santos. Any further information would be greatly appreciated. Kind regards, Richard. Attached Images

17th February 2018, 01:04 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Perhaps Richard, you should start by realizing that gunmakers often used more than one marking punzon, with slight variations; and that drawings pulled by book authors are not necessarily so exact as suc irons used. If you compare the drawings in Lavin and Soler, you will notice that they are different; in Lavin, Luis's lion has some something in his paws and in Soler's he has nothing. But if you look at actual irons that were used in those smiths guns, as illustrated and described in Catálogo de Arcabuceria Madrileña, you will see and read that both father and son marks have a fleur-de-lis in the right paw, although some time Luis doesn't use it. The more notable difference is that Juan used a radiant star in the top left corner, although his father also eventually used it. ... If i am not talking nonsense ... Fernando, tocayo ? . , Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 17th February 2018 at 09:51 PM. Reason: Reformating

18th February 2018, 04:01 PM	#12
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Fernando K, Thank you for the link! I find it very interesting that in this punzon, (See I remembered Fernado!) The lion is holding in his paw what appears to be a bunch of flowers, the same as in the one I show in the opening post. The only difference being the star is not present in the OP. Actually, on looking at the punzon again in the OP I think I Do see a star.... As Jean -Luc's beautiful little pistol is by Juan Santos, and the above by Luis, it again shows a variation on what we see in the printed page, for both father and son. All very interesting. Very best wishes, Richard. Attached Images Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 18th February 2018 at 04:27 PM.

16th February 2018, 05:31 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Luis Santos. A student in Madrid of Juan Belén, Santos probably worked during a good part of the final quarter of the seventeenth century. Although his arms were superior, he was unfortunate in being the least outstanding of Belén's disciples. He taught his son, Juan Santos, and died in Madrid on 27 April 1721. ( From a History of SPANISH FIREARMS by James D. Lavin ). BTW Richard, poinçon is more Frenchy; Spanish is punzon .

16th February 2018, 08:28 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello Ramiro Larrañaga, in "Historical synthesis of the Basque Armeria" n on page 267: SANTOS, Luis. Arcabucero de Madrid, conde3 died on 4/27/1721. Contramarca of a rampant lion. He was the father of Juan Santos Affectionately. Fernando K PD Larañaga gives as a source to LAVIN, "History of Spanish Makers"

16th February 2018, 08:58 PM	#5
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello What amazes me is that Larrañaga (opus citatus), in the same page SANTOS, Juan Arcabucero de Madrid, son of Luis Santos 1721-1745. Contramarca: a lion on the hind legs with a fleur-de-lis on the right front claw. Apparently, the punch shows a lion with something in its right claw ..... Larrañaga gives as a source to Isidro Soler "Arcabuceros de Madrid" Affectionately Fernando K

17th February 2018, 03:13 AM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thank you for your replies and the information Gentlemen. Fernando my friend, I will be sure to remember Punzon in future. Fernando K, It is very kind of you to add further information. I am a little puzzled about your last two lines. Very sorry but I am a bit thick at times! Please may I ask you to clarify your meaning here? " Apparently, the punch shows a lion with something in its right claw ..... Larrañaga gives as a source to Isidro Soler "Arcabuceros de Madrid" Do I take it that as the lion in the above photo has something different in it's paw, that it in some way differs from what we should expect? Thank you for your time, my friend. Richard.

17th February 2018, 04:18 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello I think that with the elements that Fernando has uploaded, the issue is completely clarified Affectionately Fernando K

17th February 2018, 08:36 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thank you Gentlemen. There appears quite a variety of stamps used. I had expected one to have been used rather than numerous closely related specimens. Thank again for clarifying the position! very best wishes, Richard.

17th February 2018, 09:54 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	As long as it doesn't prevent you from sleeping, Rihard my friend .

18th February 2018, 11:59 AM	#11
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Santos Hello Here is a case of SANT0S gun with magnificient images Fernando K