Proportions on various wootz etching solutions

FenrisWolf · 20th February 2007, 06:59 AM

Hey, all;

I have that project jambiya just about ready for the etching stage, and was wondering what proportions to use when mixing the etch. I have both ferric chloride and copper sulfate in powder form, and need to know what ratio to use: how many ounces of powder to add to say 8 oz. of water to mix the proper strength? Thanks!

Jeff Pringle · 20th February 2007, 03:57 PM

The more dilute the etchant is, the smoother the 'bite' and the longer it takes to do the etch. So start out with a low perecentage and if it's taking too long, make the solution stronger. If it's too strong you'll get a rough finish that looks bad.
For Ferric, I use the liquid PCB etchant and dilute it three or four parts water to one FeCl. If you are using powdered, I'd say make it about the color of 18 year old Macallan's and adjust up or down.
Degrease, in for thirty seconds, rinse, check, repeat; adjust time in the solution or solution strength. Wipe off the accumulated etching debris or they will interfere with the etch.
The copper sulfate should give you some cool effects when the copper plates out of solution!

ariel · 20th February 2007, 10:22 PM

18 yo Macallan as a color yardstick...
Single malt, of course.
But... is it single cask?

Bill M · 21st February 2007, 01:34 AM

Brian,

Whatever dilution, use DISTILLED water! I have found that tap water can make the color come out brownish.

Also be sure to have some amonia or baking soda to stop the etch when you get it like you want it.

DaveS · 27th February 2007, 03:15 AM

Brian: Instead of using ferric chloride, you might want to try phosphoric acid. It is sold by Orchard Supply Hardware under the name "metal etch" I have used it for many years to etch layer welded blades, especially moro swords. I think it gives a much better look to the steel, a silver and black look. I used ferric on wootz until just recently. I tried phosphoric on a wootz piece and the results were outstanding. Instead of diluting it ,use it right out of the bottle as i have found it really dosen't need to be diluted. It also helps if the blade is warmed with a propane torch. Just warm enough so you can't hold your hand on it. It makes the high carbon areas stand out better. Ferric chloride always seems to give a gray-green etch which i dont think looks as good as a phosphoric etch. I also have never had a problem with using straight tap water. Possibly my area of the country (Central Calif) might have different or less dissolved minerals than where Bill lives (Atlanta). That might make a big difference in the kook of the final etch.....Dave

Pukka Bundook · 27th February 2007, 01:49 PM

Dave,
thanks for the tip re. phosphoric acid.
I see you use the "metal etch" neet. Would you mind telling me how you apply it, and, How long do you leave it on the metal?
Thank you again Dave,

All the best,
Richard.

DaveS · 27th February 2007, 10:09 PM

Richard: I use a paint brush. I hold it by the handle and just apply it to both sides making sure that the blade is covered evenly. If you have warmed the blade with a propane torch sometimes the acid will smoke a little. this won't hurt anything. As to how long you need to wait for the etch to be complete, this will vary with the type of metal, number of layers, how much carbon has been put in the blade during forging. The more pieces you do, the more you will be able to know when to rinse and neutralize. Generally, iv'e found that the longer the acid is on, the darker the etch, so it will be a matter of personal preference how dark you might want the etch. I seem to get better control of the shades of light and dark if i etch out in the bright sunlight where i can better see what the final contrast will be. If the etch seems to be a little dark then you can take a steel wool pad and rubbing lightly take away some of the etch. This has worked for me........sometimes. Otherwise you will need to take some 1500 wet and dry and buff off the etch. Another thing i have found is that the higher the polish on the blade , the better it looks like it has put under a pane of glass. This is all a matter of personal preference. Some don't like an etch that looks like this, some do. Regardles of how you do it, the most important things to do are a thorough degreasing before etch, and a quick oiling after etch to prevent rust. If you have any problems, let me know. Hope this helps.............Dave

DaveS · 27th February 2007, 10:21 PM

Richard: Forgot to add that it important to keep applying the acid so that both sides of the blade are kept wet. Sometimes it comes out after less than a minute, sometimes it takes ten or even fifteen minutes but usually after five minutes if nothing happens, then nothing is going to happen. Iv'e had nothing much happen even if i know the blade is laminated. You will find that it can be very frusrating at times, but that it can be very rewarding when a beautiful pattern suddenly jumps out at you. It makes all the work you put in polishing a sword worth it...............Dave.

Pukka Bundook · 28th February 2007, 02:40 PM

Thank you Dave, for the very clear and thorough reply!

I do have one blade to do that shows promise, and will see what happens when I locate a source for the etch in question.
Thank you again!
Richard.

katana · 4th March 2007, 10:00 PM

Hi, interesting thread and very relavent to me at present. I have a Khanda which is undergoing 'restoration' on this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4194

I want to etch the blade, but I do not want to bring the blade up to a fine polish and lose all its age patina and then etch.

Can I etch the blade in such a way that it is a compromise between age/new etch. Has anyone tried to get this 'balance'.....or is it an impossible task

If anyone has tried to achieve this 'balance' (age/new etch) I would really like to see some pics to see your results.
All comments, suggestions gratefully received thankyou

Regards David

DaveS · 8th March 2007, 09:15 PM

David: I really don't think that it's possible to etch while retaining the original patina. In order to bring out the best pattern that would be viewable it's been my experience that you need to bring the blade up to some semblance of polish. You might try simply degreasing the blade, and then etching without polishing, or maybe using oooo steel wool on the blade before etching, in which case most of the original patina might be retained. It's just a matter of individual taste as to how they like a pattern to look. In my case, i like as high contrast as possible. I like a nice patina on wood, but in my opinion, patina on metal equals NEGLECT. In almost all of the cultures that we collectors deal with, the people are immensely proud of their weapons. Some reference books have stated that the silver would have been kept polished, the gold would have been kept clean and blades would have been kept in a condition of "stain", or at least been cleaned periodically. I firmly belive that most of what we see as collectors, has been stored in a auction wherehouse, or in someones attic for 50 or 80 or even 100 years. Pieces just wouldn't look that "gungy" if they were being used. Maybe this is just my opinion and no one elses...........Dave

Battara · 8th March 2007, 10:20 PM

I agree with you Dave. Silver and gold are to be kept clean. To etch a blade with out getting rid of the patina is impossible. But then that is ok since the cultures that valued damascus or wootz steels tried to keep these in etched condition anyway.

katana · 9th March 2007, 01:04 PM

Hi Dave and Battara,
thankyou both for your input

. I have to agree that a sword would have been maintained regulary....and on that basis I should clean the blade as best I can. So as not to remove too much metal, I will try to get a even smooth surface and leave some of the slighty deeper 'pits'. Then try the etch.......and see what happens.

Regards David

20th February 2007, 06:59 AM	#1
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Proportions on various wootz etching solutions Hey, all; I have that project jambiya just about ready for the etching stage, and was wondering what proportions to use when mixing the etch. I have both ferric chloride and copper sulfate in powder form, and need to know what ratio to use: how many ounces of powder to add to say 8 oz. of water to mix the proper strength? Thanks!

20th February 2007, 03:57 PM	#2
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The more dilute the etchant is, the smoother the 'bite' and the longer it takes to do the etch. So start out with a low perecentage and if it's taking too long, make the solution stronger. If it's too strong you'll get a rough finish that looks bad. For Ferric, I use the liquid PCB etchant and dilute it three or four parts water to one FeCl. If you are using powdered, I'd say make it about the color of 18 year old Macallan's and adjust up or down. Degrease, in for thirty seconds, rinse, check, repeat; adjust time in the solution or solution strength. Wipe off the accumulated etching debris or they will interfere with the etch. The copper sulfate should give you some cool effects when the copper plates out of solution!

20th February 2007, 10:22 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	18 yo Macallan as a color yardstick... Single malt, of course. But... is it single cask?

21st February 2007, 01:34 AM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Brian, Whatever dilution, use DISTILLED water! I have found that tap water can make the color come out brownish. Also be sure to have some amonia or baking soda to stop the etch when you get it like you want it.

27th February 2007, 03:15 AM	#5
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Brian: Instead of using ferric chloride, you might want to try phosphoric acid. It is sold by Orchard Supply Hardware under the name "metal etch" I have used it for many years to etch layer welded blades, especially moro swords. I think it gives a much better look to the steel, a silver and black look. I used ferric on wootz until just recently. I tried phosphoric on a wootz piece and the results were outstanding. Instead of diluting it ,use it right out of the bottle as i have found it really dosen't need to be diluted. It also helps if the blade is warmed with a propane torch. Just warm enough so you can't hold your hand on it. It makes the high carbon areas stand out better. Ferric chloride always seems to give a gray-green etch which i dont think looks as good as a phosphoric etch. I also have never had a problem with using straight tap water. Possibly my area of the country (Central Calif) might have different or less dissolved minerals than where Bill lives (Atlanta). That might make a big difference in the kook of the final etch.....Dave

27th February 2007, 01:49 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dave, thanks for the tip re. phosphoric acid. I see you use the "metal etch" neet. Would you mind telling me how you apply it, and, How long do you leave it on the metal? Thank you again Dave, All the best, Richard.

27th February 2007, 10:09 PM	#7
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Richard: I use a paint brush. I hold it by the handle and just apply it to both sides making sure that the blade is covered evenly. If you have warmed the blade with a propane torch sometimes the acid will smoke a little. this won't hurt anything. As to how long you need to wait for the etch to be complete, this will vary with the type of metal, number of layers, how much carbon has been put in the blade during forging. The more pieces you do, the more you will be able to know when to rinse and neutralize. Generally, iv'e found that the longer the acid is on, the darker the etch, so it will be a matter of personal preference how dark you might want the etch. I seem to get better control of the shades of light and dark if i etch out in the bright sunlight where i can better see what the final contrast will be. If the etch seems to be a little dark then you can take a steel wool pad and rubbing lightly take away some of the etch. This has worked for me........sometimes. Otherwise you will need to take some 1500 wet and dry and buff off the etch. Another thing i have found is that the higher the polish on the blade , the better it looks like it has put under a pane of glass. This is all a matter of personal preference. Some don't like an etch that looks like this, some do. Regardles of how you do it, the most important things to do are a thorough degreasing before etch, and a quick oiling after etch to prevent rust. If you have any problems, let me know. Hope this helps.............Dave

27th February 2007, 10:21 PM	#8
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Richard: Forgot to add that it important to keep applying the acid so that both sides of the blade are kept wet. Sometimes it comes out after less than a minute, sometimes it takes ten or even fifteen minutes but usually after five minutes if nothing happens, then nothing is going to happen. Iv'e had nothing much happen even if i know the blade is laminated. You will find that it can be very frusrating at times, but that it can be very rewarding when a beautiful pattern suddenly jumps out at you. It makes all the work you put in polishing a sword worth it...............Dave.

28th February 2007, 02:40 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thank you Dave, for the very clear and thorough reply! I do have one blade to do that shows promise, and will see what happens when I locate a source for the etch in question. Thank you again! Richard.

4th March 2007, 10:00 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi, interesting thread and very relavent to me at present. I have a Khanda which is undergoing 'restoration' on this thread... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4194 I want to etch the blade, but I do not want to bring the blade up to a fine polish and lose all its age patina and then etch. Can I etch the blade in such a way that it is a compromise between age/new etch. Has anyone tried to get this 'balance'.....or is it an impossible task If anyone has tried to achieve this 'balance' (age/new etch) I would really like to see some pics to see your results. All comments, suggestions gratefully received thankyou Regards David

8th March 2007, 09:15 PM	#11
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	David: I really don't think that it's possible to etch while retaining the original patina. In order to bring out the best pattern that would be viewable it's been my experience that you need to bring the blade up to some semblance of polish. You might try simply degreasing the blade, and then etching without polishing, or maybe using oooo steel wool on the blade before etching, in which case most of the original patina might be retained. It's just a matter of individual taste as to how they like a pattern to look. In my case, i like as high contrast as possible. I like a nice patina on wood, but in my opinion, patina on metal equals NEGLECT. In almost all of the cultures that we collectors deal with, the people are immensely proud of their weapons. Some reference books have stated that the silver would have been kept polished, the gold would have been kept clean and blades would have been kept in a condition of "stain", or at least been cleaned periodically. I firmly belive that most of what we see as collectors, has been stored in a auction wherehouse, or in someones attic for 50 or 80 or even 100 years. Pieces just wouldn't look that "gungy" if they were being used. Maybe this is just my opinion and no one elses...........Dave

8th March 2007, 10:20 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I agree with you Dave. Silver and gold are to be kept clean. To etch a blade with out getting rid of the patina is impossible. But then that is ok since the cultures that valued damascus or wootz steels tried to keep these in etched condition anyway.

9th March 2007, 01:04 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Dave and Battara, thankyou both for your input . I have to agree that a sword would have been maintained regulary....and on that basis I should clean the blade as best I can. So as not to remove too much metal, I will try to get a even smooth surface and leave some of the slighty deeper 'pits'. Then try the etch.......and see what happens. Regards David