Good old Phil.sword scabbard; 4 what type??

Indianajones · 30th October 2011, 04:33 PM

Hi all,
picked this good old Phil.scabbard up and wonder to what type of sword it belongs. Perhaps one of you knows . .??

I reckognise it being a quite old -1850's- and rarer type of scabbard as these look quite 'dull' and 'unaddorned' and therefore often seperated and thrown away? In the RMV in Leiden they have a sword with a similar type of scabbard which is -I believe- a bit broader, as is the knife.

In matter of fact this example also was in a box together with some rubbish and shells. No sword to go with it, (I asked ofcourse!)

Am looking forwardd to your replies!

Some measurements and info;

Total Lenght; 45 cm
Wide; 7 > 5.3 cm
Thick; 1.3 cm
Materials; light wood, leather w scalloped edges and impressed reliefs, quite thin animalskin, sewthread. Condition; excellent, only one small corner sidepiece missing at end.
Sword-opening; wide 5.8 cm (save) x 0.8 thick blade would fit in,
about 41.5 cm long (cavity inside runs til this length)

laEspadaAncha · 30th October 2011, 07:25 PM

While speculative, I would guess that based on the flat/convex single grind profile of the blade, its possibly Visayan in origin...

Battara · 30th October 2011, 07:41 PM

I was thinking the same thing.

Indianajones · 31st October 2011, 02:14 PM

Hi, thanks for the replies so far; Visayan?! It would not be for a 'tenegre'? That would be a kind of blade that would fit in, though havent found a tenegre with a similar sheath myself yet.
Hopefully someone is able to pin it down bit more specificly.

Will try to look up n scan that pic in RMV booklet.

Royston · 31st October 2011, 06:01 PM

Indianajones

It looks as though your sheath is missing parts. If you take all of the decoration off this sheath I do not think it would be that much different.

Regards
Roy

Indianajones · 31st October 2011, 07:47 PM

Hi Roy, hmmm interesting. I just had again a good look at the sheath for traces of missing parts but I really see any traces of missing pieces. Also no discoloration -as is just under the leather topcover on reverse; see pic 3- on top or bottom as sign.

I have looked up quite some tenegre's but most of them have metal or horn fittings around the wood and a metal end with studs. But I have learned from this forum that tenegre's can origin from diferent regions?!?

I did find this pic of a sword from Robert Coleman from an old thread which also looks quite like my scabbard, but still a disturbing(?) difference.

Thanks

Lew · 31st October 2011, 08:41 PM

Found this one that I use to have

VANDOO · 31st October 2011, 11:34 PM

YOUR SCABBARD WOULD BE FOR A WORK GRADE CHOPPER, NOT AS MUCH WORK GOES INTO THEM SO HORN FITTINGS, EXPENSIVE WOOD AND FANCY CARVINGS ARE NOT THE NORM. VISIAN BECAUSE OF THE LEATHER SLEAVE LIKELY TENEGRE FORM BLADE WITHOUT A FANCY MONSTER HEAD, BUT WITHOUT THE BLADE

SO BASICALLY A VISIAN PRANG SCABBARD WOULD BE A SAFE GUESS UNTIL A EXACT DUPLICATE SHOWS UP.

I SUPPOSE YOU COULD TAKE IT APART TO SEE THE BLADE SHAPE BETTER BUT THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO STICH IT UP AGAIN UNLESS THE BANDS SLIDE OFF.

Indianajones · 5th November 2011, 12:35 PM

Hello, this is the Phil./malay sword I meant >see pic below< with a similar scabbard as mine, unfortunately they noted just one size. Anybody here has such a sword with scabbard and can share the measurements of it??
The pic in the book is just a bit too far off to be sure its the same and -although my scabbard looks pretty much the same- mine may not be wide enough.

Any other help/suggestions pls??!!?
Thanks in advance and for so far!

VVV · 5th November 2011, 04:02 PM

I have a resembling bolo like in the catalogue.
My sword is 23 1/2" overall with a 17" blade.
I am traveling at the moment so I can't measure the
scabbard but I will be back home in a couple of days.

Michael

Indianajones · 5th November 2011, 08:52 PM

Hi Michael,
oh wow so you have that second example I've ever seen; I have had one of those sword some time ago, but only the sword. Do you know their origin?

I have -later after sold it- found out it was used by kind of malay/Filipino pirates called 'Mayalos'. Only found ONE pic of a Mayalo wearing one (see left guy), but one has to look quite carefully to detect/reckognize. >>its better visible on d original pic that d handle type is d same<<

From your pics I have derived the measure; width of the scabbard would be approx. 2.5" (6.7cm) if I'm correct. This would be much wider than mine, with about a large cm/ half an inch. Though the scabbardstyle and materials used have a lot of similarities indeed.
Maybe those Malolos would also use another narrower kind of blade?!??

Getting close though and lets hope we'l ever find an answer (BEfore I sell it)

Thanks so much for the input!
Regards, Wouter

VVV · 6th November 2011, 01:54 AM

Thanks for the pictures.
It says "malayos" = malays.
AFAIK it's a negrito bolo.

Michael

Indianajones · 6th November 2011, 12:20 PM

Yes you'r right. Pictures were taken in Philippines and those guys indeed look negrito (Negrito chiefs often wore those high hats) but perhaps a group joined Malay seafarers.
Here's the pics addres; its an Adobedocument; 'El imaginario colonial.Fotografía en filipinas durante el periodo espanol'

30th October 2011, 04:33 PM	#1
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Good old Phil.sword scabbard; 4 what type?? Hi all, picked this good old Phil.scabbard up and wonder to what type of sword it belongs. Perhaps one of you knows . .?? I reckognise it being a quite old -1850's- and rarer type of scabbard as these look quite 'dull' and 'unaddorned' and therefore often seperated and thrown away? In the RMV in Leiden they have a sword with a similar type of scabbard which is -I believe- a bit broader, as is the knife. In matter of fact this example also was in a box together with some rubbish and shells. No sword to go with it, (I asked ofcourse!) Am looking forwardd to your replies! Some measurements and info; Total Lenght; 45 cm Wide; 7 > 5.3 cm Thick; 1.3 cm Materials; light wood, leather w scalloped edges and impressed reliefs, quite thin animalskin, sewthread. Condition; excellent, only one small corner sidepiece missing at end. Sword-opening; wide 5.8 cm (save) x 0.8 thick blade would fit in, about 41.5 cm long (cavity inside runs til this length) Attached Images

31st October 2011, 06:01 PM	#5
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Indianajones It looks as though your sheath is missing parts. If you take all of the decoration off this sheath I do not think it would be that much different. Regards Roy Attached Images

31st October 2011, 07:47 PM	#6
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi Roy, hmmm interesting. I just had again a good look at the sheath for traces of missing parts but I really see any traces of missing pieces. Also no discoloration -as is just under the leather topcover on reverse; see pic 3- on top or bottom as sign. I have looked up quite some tenegre's but most of them have metal or horn fittings around the wood and a metal end with studs. But I have learned from this forum that tenegre's can origin from diferent regions?!? I did find this pic of a sword from Robert Coleman from an old thread which also looks quite like my scabbard, but still a disturbing(?) difference. Thanks Attached Images Last edited by Indianajones; 31st October 2011 at 08:19 PM.

31st October 2011, 08:41 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Found this one that I use to have Attached Images

5th November 2011, 12:35 PM	#9
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hello, this is the Phil./malay sword I meant >see pic below< with a similar scabbard as mine, unfortunately they noted just one size. Anybody here has such a sword with scabbard and can share the measurements of it?? The pic in the book is just a bit too far off to be sure its the same and -although my scabbard looks pretty much the same- mine may not be wide enough. Any other help/suggestions pls??!!? Thanks in advance and for so far! Attached Images

30th October 2011, 07:25 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	While speculative, I would guess that based on the flat/convex single grind profile of the blade, its possibly Visayan in origin...

30th October 2011, 07:41 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I was thinking the same thing.

31st October 2011, 02:14 PM	#4
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi, thanks for the replies so far; Visayan?! It would not be for a 'tenegre'? That would be a kind of blade that would fit in, though havent found a tenegre with a similar sheath myself yet. Hopefully someone is able to pin it down bit more specificly. Will try to look up n scan that pic in RMV booklet.

31st October 2011, 11:34 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOUR SCABBARD WOULD BE FOR A WORK GRADE CHOPPER, NOT AS MUCH WORK GOES INTO THEM SO HORN FITTINGS, EXPENSIVE WOOD AND FANCY CARVINGS ARE NOT THE NORM. VISIAN BECAUSE OF THE LEATHER SLEAVE LIKELY TENEGRE FORM BLADE WITHOUT A FANCY MONSTER HEAD, BUT WITHOUT THE BLADE SO BASICALLY A VISIAN PRANG SCABBARD WOULD BE A SAFE GUESS UNTIL A EXACT DUPLICATE SHOWS UP. I SUPPOSE YOU COULD TAKE IT APART TO SEE THE BLADE SHAPE BETTER BUT THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO STICH IT UP AGAIN UNLESS THE BANDS SLIDE OFF.

5th November 2011, 04:02 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I have a resembling bolo like in the catalogue. My sword is 23 1/2" overall with a 17" blade. I am traveling at the moment so I can't measure the scabbard but I will be back home in a couple of days. Michael Attached Images

5th November 2011, 08:52 PM	#11
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi Michael, oh wow so you have that second example I've ever seen; I have had one of those sword some time ago, but only the sword. Do you know their origin? I have -later after sold it- found out it was used by kind of malay/Filipino pirates called 'Mayalos'. Only found ONE pic of a Mayalo wearing one (see left guy), but one has to look quite carefully to detect/reckognize. >>its better visible on d original pic that d handle type is d same<< From your pics I have derived the measure; width of the scabbard would be approx. 2.5" (6.7cm) if I'm correct. This would be much wider than mine, with about a large cm/ half an inch. Though the scabbardstyle and materials used have a lot of similarities indeed. Maybe those Malolos would also use another narrower kind of blade?!?? Getting close though and lets hope we'l ever find an answer (BEfore I sell it) Thanks so much for the input! Regards, Wouter Attached Images

6th November 2011, 01:54 AM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for the pictures. It says "malayos" = malays. AFAIK it's a negrito bolo. Michael

6th November 2011, 12:20 PM	#13
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Yes you'r right. Pictures were taken in Philippines and those guys indeed look negrito (Negrito chiefs often wore those high hats) but perhaps a group joined Malay seafarers. Here's the pics addres; its an Adobedocument; 'El imaginario colonial.Fotografía en filipinas durante el periodo espanol'