![]() |
|
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]()
I am photographing this Spanish Musket for WeaponsCollector.com today. The makers mark on the barrel appears to be that of Joan (Juan) Prat. I've found this unattributed information on-line.
Joan (Juan) Prat, a Basque gunsmith, was active circa 1780 in Ripoll, in Gerona province in the eastern Spanish Pyrenees, 20 miles south of the French border. The Prat family is mentioned in Dr. James D. Lavin's A History of Spanish Firearms on page 274: Prats, M. , A Ripoll lockmaker active during the final quarter of the seventeenth century. His mark together with the date 1686 appears on the battery of a three-barrelled gun in the Museo Arqueolégico Nacional, Madrid (6417). The family of Prats or Prat manufactured locks and barrels in Ripoll until the middle of the eighteenth century. Several Prats are listed in Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna, desde la epoca romana hasta nuestros dias (Biographical Dictionary of Artists of Catalonia, from Roman times to the present day) by J. F. Rafols, (1951), see attached images. I don’t speak Spanish and have yet to pass these listing by Google Translate. I'd appreciate any additional information or clarification on Joan Prat and the Prat family. Last edited by dana_w; 20th January 2017 at 07:02 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 668
|
![]()
Hello
This is not a musket, but a shotgun. The barrel channel stretches beyond the handle and the lock is the so-called "all three fashions". The Ripoll PARAT lineage includes 22 gunsmiths Ramiro Larrañaga, in "Historical Synthesis of the Basque Armory", page 266, brings the following news PRAT Line of arms of Ri`poll. 17th and 18th centuries. There are more than 22 teachers of this surname That's it Affectionately. Fernando K PS I did not see the inscription on the plate of the lock Traductor de Google para empresas:Google Translator ToolkitTraductor de sitios webGlobal Market Finder |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]()
Thanks for the info on the PARAT lineage Fernando K. Would you translate the Joan (Juan) Prat entries from the Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna for me?
I have not found any inscription on the lock yet. I may remove it to check the inside soon. I am not clear on why you think this long gun was made exclusively for shot and not ball. Are you trying to say it is because the stock doesn't extend the length of the barrel? Last edited by dana_w; 20th January 2017 at 01:20 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 668
|
![]()
Hello dana
Yes, exactly. The stock does not extend to the mouth, the drumstick gets into where the stock ends and because it is a quality weapon. The hunting bayonet in iodine case, gets into the barrel You will be translating the tickets for IOAN PRAT, but tomorrow Greetings. Fernando K |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 668
|
![]()
PRATS, Joan. "Master of works" (mason) of the second half of the 15th century. I worked with Bartollome Mas in the church of Pino de Barcelona
PRATS, Joan. Maestro plateero barcelones, from the 15th century - I finish his "pasantia" in 1579, presenting a ring. In his entrance in the books of the guild it is made record that he has to pass new examinations in 1593 and 1616 PRATS "Master stocmaker" of the 15th century, born in Barcelona. It is known to him City councilman for the consular year of 1644 - 1665 PRATS, Joan "Master of works" (mason) of the 16th century .. Together with Jose Rovira and helped by his son Jose, I built in 1670 the base of the high altar in the parish of Esparraguerra. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 668
|
![]()
Francisco de GOYA
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
So ...
. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]() Quote:
Thanks so much for the scan of the marks too. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]()
It is a little hard to tell but the weapons in Francisco de GOYA's, Dogs on leash, look like they could be full stock. Here is a larger and clearer photo.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 668
|
![]()
Hello dana
Yes, exactly. Also in the painting of GOYA, Carlos ii, hunter, has a shotgun with the complete stock, and at his waist you can see the hunting bayonet. In the best picture of dogs hunting, you can also see the hunting bayonet. Fernando k |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
They are full stocked indeed.
Maybe this hunter fancied hunting with, not one but, a pair of muskets ... and two dogs leashed to each other with such short steel chain. All very unusual, don't you agree ? Isn't this what we call over here artistic freedom ? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]() Quote:
Never? Are you sure about that fernando? ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
You may conclude by yourself ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
A 'modern' tercerola is not a musket ... but you may change "never" to "rarely", though
![]() I am no scholar Dana; i allow myself 'digestive' assumptions as figures of speech, depending on the context ... and i have also learnt a few thing during my 69 years ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() Obviously we are simplifying things when differentiating shoulder guns typology only by their stock length. Deoration has a lot to do with it, as Fernando K well reminded. While military weapons have/had a more austere look, is on hunting guns that usually smiths have a go with their artistry, either on barrels as also on locks; don't you agree ? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
Now if you don't mind, this is definitely a topic for the European forum. I don't know how i didn't notice this before but, we are still in time to move it to that section ... and expect further comments on this fine gun.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southeast Florida, USA
Posts: 429
|
![]() Quote:
A good point. Sorry about posting in the wrong forum. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,590
|
![]()
[QUOTE=fernando]Are you kiding me ? my age is not that advanced
![]() Mmmmm!!!! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
So what, Norman; are you envious of my youth ?
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,590
|
![]()
I've been trying to convince my wife
![]() Kind Regards, Norman OOPS ![]() ![]() ![]() Last edited by Norman McCormick; 20th January 2017 at 11:21 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 93
|
![]()
I really enjoy Peninsular Miquelets and want to learn as much as I can about them, what is the meaning of "all three fashions" applied to the lock in this case?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|