16thC African Sword

B.I · 25th April 2007, 01:40 PM

I thought I knew the London collections quite well, but know I tend to visit the same pieces and ignore the fields that dont necessarily interest me. So, I had never been to the African galleries in the basement of the BM. I happened down there today, in search of an answer to a friends question, and stumbled across a 16thC sword from the Kingdom of Konga. Severe Potuguese/Spanish influence (or even heritage, as the blade seems very European). Its hidden far behind glass, and is annoyingly displayed in front of patterned textiles, which confuses my digital camera.
But, it is definately very old and a sword with substantial presence. From its form and look, and have little doubt that the age attribution is correct.
Is anyone familiar with this sword, or ones like it from the same period in Africa?
The description card doesnt mention any provenance, and from the accession number, I think it a relatively recent aquisition. It just mentions the Portuguese in the Konga during this period.

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 03:26 PM

Hi Brian, is something like this?

B.I · 25th April 2007, 03:48 PM

Well done Flavio!
That is the sword! What information do you have on it?
I did take images, but havent had a chance to take the pictures off the camera. The images will be very poor due to glass and very dim lighting, but will post them anyway.
Is that Springs book? I have it at home, but dont know it enough to recognise an image from it. As his 'home' is the BM, I figure he would have something to say about the sword.

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 04:56 PM

Hello Brian, no this is Ijzerwerk van centraal-afrika (H. Westerdijk). This sword is from Congo tribe (tribe that is located near the congo-zaire river and the first that the Europen met when they "touched" the now a days Congo shores). For what I know these swords are 19th century old but for sure they copied the Portuguese older swords (see also this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369) and they are more currencies than real weapons, but for sure there must be some older exemples that were the precedents of those that we can see today and that were real weapons

Edit: If I understand well (If the translator is correct

) in some examples the blades are imported from Europe and so at least some of these were real weapons and some still have some ivory pieces on the handle (and so no currencies at all). Where are our Belgian friends (Freddy!!!!)

???? The page is 66 (Groep X)

B.I · 25th April 2007, 05:47 PM

Hi Flavio,
It isnt my field, but I am pretty sure this is the real thing, and not 19thC. I couldnt get close to it, but it had all the asthetics of an old sword.
I think I will have to post the images later on, and maybe also get Marc and Fernando involved.

Tim Simmons · 25th April 2007, 06:20 PM

Some more from "Armes traditionnelles d'Afrique" Found around Congo and Angola. As mentioned based on old swords but not that old in themselves.

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 06:52 PM

Hello Brian, I will look forward to see your pics because since now I have seen just rusty examples on the web that are for sure not real weapons and not so old, but I have already said that there must be some older examples that were for the real use and that are the "prototype".
More on the book "Beauty in the blade" (Marc Leo Felix and Jan Elsen) there is said that these swords were produced still in recent times with the same "form" because they were also status symbol and so the shape of the blade and the hilt must remain the same over the centuries.

From Beauty in the blade:

Freddy · 25th April 2007, 08:09 PM

Here I am, Flavio. Sorry, but I had to work

Here's the translation from the book you mentioned earlier :

The area of the Kongo-tribe had the earliest European influence in Congo. This was the first region where European weapons were introduced. Especially swords from Spain or Portugal were imported into the Kongo empire. And very soon, locals smiths took over the production of this type of sword. Due to the import of guns, local production of weapons declined. The only remainin witnesses are the rare swords which were used as symbols of authority by the rulers of the Kongo empire. ...

A bit further the author continues :

The handles of most swords have perished. But some still have an ivory handle. Not all of the sword blades were locally made. Some were of European origin ...

In 'Dodelijk Mooi' (Beauté fatale or Deadly Beauty) the author states :

In the vicinity of the Zaïre (Kongo) estuary, a ceremonial sword can be found which is produced in imitation of old Portuguese swords.

Here's a pic form 'Dodelijk mooi' (with sheath).

local name : mbeele za lulendo
materials used : iron, ivory, wood, leather
collected in 1988
dimensions : 89,1 cm (sword) - 71,2 cm (sheath)
collection of Jan Elsen

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 09:00 PM

Thank you very much Freddy

fernando · 25th April 2007, 11:15 PM

Hi Brian
No comparison possible between me and Marc. I am just less than an ignorant, while Marc is a master.
But let's pretend that sword is actually of Portuguese influence or inheritance.
As just said the other day in the thread signaled by Flavio, these Afro-Portuguese swords were originaly mounted by Portuguese resident smiths ( XV century ), but quickly imitated by the Congolese artisans. While the Portuguese production has soon ceased, the Congolese kept making them until the XIX century. It is of general knowledge that actual Portuguese specimens are very, very rare. On the other hand, the British Museum is a serious house. I would have no doubt that their example is real old, which doesn't avoid that it is a native made piece, from the early period.
It is said that in both cases the blades were imported from Europe, which makes it dificult to distinguish either version, if it weren't for the hilt quality aspect.
These swords have played an important role in Congo society, where the Kings got to be christianized.The Cross symbols being perforated in the superior quillons, besides the respect (?) reached by the Portuguese , made these swords achieve a symbolic status, becoming possession of local aristrocacy, still today called swords of authority.
I have spotted these pictures the other day
http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2631
http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2388
http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2633
http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2635
I am not at all an expert, but these examples's crudeness is well visible.
I look forward to seing those pictures of yours, and so will the other experimented members.
kind regards
fernando

Marc · 26th April 2007, 12:07 AM

I'm afraid I'm far from being a "master" of anything, but you're also far from being an ignorant, Fernando

This is extremely interesting. The original typology has already been discussed in the other thread, but the extent and the characteristics of this African production is a subject that deserves definitely a deeper study. The key element are the blades, probably. I would really like to be able to take a closer looks to some of them...

Thanks for this info, gentlemen.

B.I · 27th April 2007, 08:06 PM

Sorry, I didnt get a chance to unload the images, and have left me camera at work!
Will definately do so early next week!
I am very curious for an opinion from those that know, which of course would be easier from an image, and not my previous description.

B.I · 3rd May 2007, 03:14 PM

Very sorry for the delay.
Looking at it now, I have doubts of the 16thC attribution, due to the crude fullers. Look forward to other opinions.

Marc · 4th May 2007, 12:37 PM

Thanks for the pics, Brian.

The blade sure doesn't look european, 16th c. or else. If these were indeed produced since that time onwards in Africa, it could be from any date since then.
Funny... I wonder how many of the swords of that type presently labelled as "portugese" are in fact African...

Fernando, that bit of data about the portugese sailors making these swords for their personal use to explain their crudeness... ¿where it comes from? It would be good to have a reference for its origin.

fernando · 4th May 2007, 10:25 PM

Hi Marc
Are you referring to my quotation of page 170-171 of "Homens e Espadas e Tomates", which i am worried for you having not yet received your copy ?
It says there that, at the arsenals built in the African Coast ( and not only ) swords could be restored by Portuguese swordsmiths and other "handy" blacksmiths. Blades were imported "by the bundle", from either Spain (toledanas ?) or Europe, and mounted or remounted locally. If on one hand these colonial swords looked quite inferior, compared to those originally made in Portugal, on the other, could be confused with those made by the local African artisans, as both could have similar resource for the blades.
Naturally the African hilts were more crude than those of the Portuguese soldiers, but differences could sometimes be subtle for a non expert. Dahehnardt told me personnaly that the differences could reside in the tang fixing and pommel dimensions. Obviously sometimes things were not so extreme, and the difference was obvious. He writes ( not in this book ) that the Africans also mounted these swords with local blades.
Another reference is that the Portuguese only practised this exercise during the XV-XVI century. And almost the totality of these swords have practically disappeared. You will see an original of these colonial swords in page 64 of the same book, with a marked german blade of the XVI century. Do i see on the pommel and blade fullers an "inspiration" to the specimen pictured by Brian of the British Museum ?

Certainly the massive quantity that can bee found out there are copies of the thing. But those can be old and valuable, too. I have an auction catalogue with a Muslim specimen, probably from Guinea, with all parts of the set dating from the XVI-XVII century ... with the guards in the colhona style.
See also item 5 of Antonio's exhibition, with a german blade marked Abraham Stam.
http://www.arscives.com/cejunior/portarmour/005.htm
Eventually i can see the same blade mark in a British catalogue picture of a beautyfull nimcha, but dated XVIII century.
So Brian ... and Marc, to my absolutely unexperienced eye, the BM sword is probably African, judging by its hilt, rather than for the crudeness of the blade. Don't pay much attention to what i say, but i find this piece quite old. Not necessarily from the XVI century, but also not XIX or the like.
Sorry for the "dry up".
fernando

ariel · 14th May 2007, 02:06 AM

Here is another one, but not Portugese this time.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6251&rd=1&rd=1

Pieje · 23rd October 2014, 01:27 PM

I just want to show you another example I recently obtained, "bought in Kinshasa in the 70ties". Probably a copy of a Portuguese XVI Century sword? Hilt is made of ivory.

Pieje · 23rd October 2014, 01:46 PM

Daylight pic..

LJ · 23rd October 2014, 05:23 PM

I've just searched the B.M. online database using the keywords Congo Sword, and there is an entry for it. The sword was only acquired by them in 1995 so strictly speaking the label should say "pre-1995", with maybe something added saying that the curators think it could be 16th Century.

fernando · 23rd October 2014, 08:44 PM

Yes, it follows the same line ... except for the face on the grip

25th April 2007, 01:40 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	16thC African Sword I thought I knew the London collections quite well, but know I tend to visit the same pieces and ignore the fields that dont necessarily interest me. So, I had never been to the African galleries in the basement of the BM. I happened down there today, in search of an answer to a friends question, and stumbled across a 16thC sword from the Kingdom of Konga. Severe Potuguese/Spanish influence (or even heritage, as the blade seems very European). Its hidden far behind glass, and is annoyingly displayed in front of patterned textiles, which confuses my digital camera. But, it is definately very old and a sword with substantial presence. From its form and look, and have little doubt that the age attribution is correct. Is anyone familiar with this sword, or ones like it from the same period in Africa? The description card doesnt mention any provenance, and from the accession number, I think it a relatively recent aquisition. It just mentions the Portuguese in the Konga during this period.

25th April 2007, 03:26 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Brian, is something like this? Attached Images

25th April 2007, 04:56 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Brian, no this is Ijzerwerk van centraal-afrika (H. Westerdijk). This sword is from Congo tribe (tribe that is located near the congo-zaire river and the first that the Europen met when they "touched" the now a days Congo shores). For what I know these swords are 19th century old but for sure they copied the Portuguese older swords (see also this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369) and they are more currencies than real weapons, but for sure there must be some older exemples that were the precedents of those that we can see today and that were real weapons Edit: If I understand well (If the translator is correct ) in some examples the blades are imported from Europe and so at least some of these were real weapons and some still have some ivory pieces on the handle (and so no currencies at all). Where are our Belgian friends (Freddy!!!!) ???? The page is 66 (Groep X) Last edited by Flavio; 25th April 2007 at 05:22 PM.

25th April 2007, 06:20 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Some more from "Armes traditionnelles d'Afrique" Found around Congo and Angola. As mentioned based on old swords but not that old in themselves. Attached Images

25th April 2007, 06:52 PM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Brian, I will look forward to see your pics because since now I have seen just rusty examples on the web that are for sure not real weapons and not so old, but I have already said that there must be some older examples that were for the real use and that are the "prototype". More on the book "Beauty in the blade" (Marc Leo Felix and Jan Elsen) there is said that these swords were produced still in recent times with the same "form" because they were also status symbol and so the shape of the blade and the hilt must remain the same over the centuries. From Beauty in the blade: Attached Images Last edited by Flavio; 25th April 2007 at 07:06 PM.

25th April 2007, 03:48 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Well done Flavio! That is the sword! What information do you have on it? I did take images, but havent had a chance to take the pictures off the camera. The images will be very poor due to glass and very dim lighting, but will post them anyway. Is that Springs book? I have it at home, but dont know it enough to recognise an image from it. As his 'home' is the BM, I figure he would have something to say about the sword.

25th April 2007, 05:47 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Flavio, It isnt my field, but I am pretty sure this is the real thing, and not 19thC. I couldnt get close to it, but it had all the asthetics of an old sword. I think I will have to post the images later on, and maybe also get Marc and Fernando involved.

25th April 2007, 08:09 PM	#8
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Here I am, Flavio. Sorry, but I had to work Here's the translation from the book you mentioned earlier : The area of the Kongo-tribe had the earliest European influence in Congo. This was the first region where European weapons were introduced. Especially swords from Spain or Portugal were imported into the Kongo empire. And very soon, locals smiths took over the production of this type of sword. Due to the import of guns, local production of weapons declined. The only remainin witnesses are the rare swords which were used as symbols of authority by the rulers of the Kongo empire. ... A bit further the author continues : The handles of most swords have perished. But some still have an ivory handle. Not all of the sword blades were locally made. Some were of European origin ... In 'Dodelijk Mooi' (Beauté fatale or Deadly Beauty) the author states : In the vicinity of the Zaïre (Kongo) estuary, a ceremonial sword can be found which is produced in imitation of old Portuguese swords. Here's a pic form 'Dodelijk mooi' (with sheath). local name : mbeele za lulendo materials used : iron, ivory, wood, leather collected in 1988 dimensions : 89,1 cm (sword) - 71,2 cm (sheath) collection of Jan Elsen

25th April 2007, 09:00 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much Freddy

25th April 2007, 11:15 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Brian No comparison possible between me and Marc. I am just less than an ignorant, while Marc is a master. But let's pretend that sword is actually of Portuguese influence or inheritance. As just said the other day in the thread signaled by Flavio, these Afro-Portuguese swords were originaly mounted by Portuguese resident smiths ( XV century ), but quickly imitated by the Congolese artisans. While the Portuguese production has soon ceased, the Congolese kept making them until the XIX century. It is of general knowledge that actual Portuguese specimens are very, very rare. On the other hand, the British Museum is a serious house. I would have no doubt that their example is real old, which doesn't avoid that it is a native made piece, from the early period. It is said that in both cases the blades were imported from Europe, which makes it dificult to distinguish either version, if it weren't for the hilt quality aspect. These swords have played an important role in Congo society, where the Kings got to be christianized.The Cross symbols being perforated in the superior quillons, besides the respect (?) reached by the Portuguese , made these swords achieve a symbolic status, becoming possession of local aristrocacy, still today called swords of authority. I have spotted these pictures the other day http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2631 http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2388 http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2633 http://african-tribal-art-weapons.eu...g2_itemId=2635 I am not at all an expert, but these examples's crudeness is well visible. I look forward to seing those pictures of yours, and so will the other experimented members. kind regards fernando

26th April 2007, 12:07 AM	#11
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	I'm afraid I'm far from being a "master" of anything, but you're also far from being an ignorant, Fernando This is extremely interesting. The original typology has already been discussed in the other thread, but the extent and the characteristics of this African production is a subject that deserves definitely a deeper study. The key element are the blades, probably. I would really like to be able to take a closer looks to some of them... Thanks for this info, gentlemen.

27th April 2007, 08:06 PM	#12
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Sorry, I didnt get a chance to unload the images, and have left me camera at work! Will definately do so early next week! I am very curious for an opinion from those that know, which of course would be easier from an image, and not my previous description.

3rd May 2007, 03:14 PM	#13
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Very sorry for the delay. Looking at it now, I have doubts of the 16thC attribution, due to the crude fullers. Look forward to other opinions. Attached Images

4th May 2007, 12:37 PM	#14
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Thanks for the pics, Brian. The blade sure doesn't look european, 16th c. or else. If these were indeed produced since that time onwards in Africa, it could be from any date since then. Funny... I wonder how many of the swords of that type presently labelled as "portugese" are in fact African... Fernando, that bit of data about the portugese sailors making these swords for their personal use to explain their crudeness... ¿where it comes from? It would be good to have a reference for its origin.

4th May 2007, 10:25 PM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Marc Are you referring to my quotation of page 170-171 of "Homens e Espadas e Tomates", which i am worried for you having not yet received your copy ? It says there that, at the arsenals built in the African Coast ( and not only ) swords could be restored by Portuguese swordsmiths and other "handy" blacksmiths. Blades were imported "by the bundle", from either Spain (toledanas ?) or Europe, and mounted or remounted locally. If on one hand these colonial swords looked quite inferior, compared to those originally made in Portugal, on the other, could be confused with those made by the local African artisans, as both could have similar resource for the blades. Naturally the African hilts were more crude than those of the Portuguese soldiers, but differences could sometimes be subtle for a non expert. Dahehnardt told me personnaly that the differences could reside in the tang fixing and pommel dimensions. Obviously sometimes things were not so extreme, and the difference was obvious. He writes ( not in this book ) that the Africans also mounted these swords with local blades. Another reference is that the Portuguese only practised this exercise during the XV-XVI century. And almost the totality of these swords have practically disappeared. You will see an original of these colonial swords in page 64 of the same book, with a marked german blade of the XVI century. Do i see on the pommel and blade fullers an "inspiration" to the specimen pictured by Brian of the British Museum ? Certainly the massive quantity that can bee found out there are copies of the thing. But those can be old and valuable, too. I have an auction catalogue with a Muslim specimen, probably from Guinea, with all parts of the set dating from the XVI-XVII century ... with the guards in the colhona style. See also item 5 of Antonio's exhibition, with a german blade marked Abraham Stam. http://www.arscives.com/cejunior/portarmour/005.htm Eventually i can see the same blade mark in a British catalogue picture of a beautyfull nimcha, but dated XVIII century. So Brian ... and Marc, to my absolutely unexperienced eye, the BM sword is probably African, judging by its hilt, rather than for the crudeness of the blade. Don't pay much attention to what i say, but i find this piece quite old. Not necessarily from the XVI century, but also not XIX or the like. Sorry for the "dry up". fernando Last edited by fernando; 4th May 2007 at 10:38 PM.

14th May 2007, 02:06 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is another one, but not Portugese this time. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...6251&rd=1&rd=1

23rd October 2014, 01:27 PM	#17
Pieje Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 132	I just want to show you another example I recently obtained, "bought in Kinshasa in the 70ties". Probably a copy of a Portuguese XVI Century sword? Hilt is made of ivory. Attached Images

23rd October 2014, 01:46 PM	#18
Pieje Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 132	Daylight pic.. Attached Images

23rd October 2014, 05:23 PM	#19
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	I've just searched the B.M. online database using the keywords Congo Sword, and there is an entry for it. The sword was only acquired by them in 1995 so strictly speaking the label should say "pre-1995", with maybe something added saying that the curators think it could be 16th Century.

23rd October 2014, 08:44 PM	#20
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Yes, it follows the same line ... except for the face on the grip