An Unsusal Curved Flyssa sword

[CharlesS]

I have always found extremely long, straight flyssas a little awkward to handle and wondered how their use was maximized in combat as they seem to only be stabbing swords. Only the bulbous part of the edge might be able to slash. But, the longer they are, it seems, the more difficult this would become. While this length might be an asset on horse or camel back, I still think it limits the use of the sword.

I see the very long Moroccan nimchas in the much the same manner. There elongated blade seems to limit their use, while their Zanzibar cousins are usually shorter and curved and, for me, more practical.

Here is an unusual variation to the nimcha that incorporates a heavy curved blade, otherwise of standard flyssa form. To me it is both more practical and efficient....obviously most flyssa users would disagree based on the number of straight vs. curved examples.

So, am I missing something on the flyssa's use in combat, something that makes its profile more practical?

Dimensions:
Overall length: 31.5in.
Blade length: 26.5in.
Blade's width at the center: 1in.
Blade's thickness at the forte: just over 1/4in.

Input is welcomed and appreciated.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I have always found extremely long, straight flyssas a little awkward to handle and wondered how their use was maximized in combat as they seem to only be stabbing swords. Only the bulbous part of the edge might be able to slash. But, the longer they are, it seems, the more difficult this would become. While this length might be an asset on horse or camel back, I still think it limits the use of the sword.

Charles, a nice example. Below is the solution that some people used, keep the scabbard that identifies your cultural association but use a more battle worthy sword.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Charles,

As far as I know, the Flyssa is characterised by the shape of its blade and not by the hilt. So I do not consider the saber in your example to be a Flyssa.

Regards,

Marius

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Charles,

As far as I know, the Flyssa is characterised by the shape of its blade and not by the hilt.

Maybe not?

[Kubur]

Hi All,

I disagree with Marius.
It's a flyssa, with a flyssa hilt, flyssa scabbard and flyssa blade (engravings).
Yes the curvature is different but the length is a flyssa length.
It was just inspired by the so-called weeding swords, the real nimcha.
Plus you don't have one type of flyssa blade but at least two, the long and narrow and the large yatagan type...

Best,
Kubur

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi All,

I disagree with Marius.
It's a flyssa, with a flyssa hilt, flyssa scabbard and flyssa blade (engravings).
Yes the curvature is different but the length is a flyssa length.
It was just inspired by the so-called weeding swords, the real nimcha.
Plus you don't have one type of flyssa blade but at least two, the long and narrow and the large yatagan type...

Best,
Kubur

A few flyssa blade types.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by estcrh

A few flyssa blade types.

Waow its what they call a team work!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

A few flyssa blade types.

Exactly my point!


Otherwise, we may end up calling all these "Tulwar".

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Exactly my point!


Otherwise, we may end up calling all these "Tulwar".

Marius, you know that swords / daggers from certain cultures are more categorized than others. Indian swords are very categorized with many different types being given specific names. Swords / daggers from other cultures are treated differently....take yatagan for example....many different blade types, hilt types, scabbard types and yet we have no problem categorizing them as yatagan. These things tend to be on a case by case basis.

So is this sword a nimcha or a flyssa???

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Marius, you know that swords / daggers from certain cultures are more categorized than others. Indian swords are very categorized with many different types being given specific names. Swords / daggers from other cultures are treated differently....take yatagan for example....many different blade types, hilt types, scabbard types and yet we have no problem categorizing them as yatagan. These things tend to be on a case by case basis.

So is this sword a nimcha or a flyssa???

Of course you are right and I know myself that.

However, I am of the oppinion we must stirve to improve the current naming system by making it clearer, more consitent and more accurate.

Following this idea, I believe a sword is primarilly defined by its blade.

So, your example is a "Flyssa with a Nimcha hilt." Now, even without seeing the photo, you could be able to get a pretty good idea of what it is.

Why not a "Nimcha witha Flyssa blade?" Because, as I mentioned earlier, the blade is the most important part of a sword, and therefore, the sword should be named after the blade.

However, this remains my oppinion.

PS: You found a brilliant example!

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Following this idea, I believe a sword is primarilly defined by its blade.
and therefore, the sword should be named after the blade.
However, this remains my oppinion.

Well Marius
...a lot of members are thinking like you.
However IMHO I think the total opposite
The people who did these swords didn't care about the style of the swords
they cared about effectiveness and beauty, good blade to fight and to show off
Most of the Arab, Turkish, African and Indian swords have imported blades
Europeans and Persians
What do you think about the kaskara, tabouka, Arabian shamshirs, shashka, firangi, kattara?
Plus you have yatagans without the typical yatagan curved blades... where do you put them?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well Marius
...a lot of members are thinking like you.
However IMHO I think the total opposite
The people who did these swords didn't care about the style of the swords
they cared about effectiveness and beauty, good blade to fight and to show off
Most of the Arab, Turkish, African and Indian swords have imported blades
Europeans and Persians
What do you think about the kaskara, tabouka, Arabian shamshirs, shashka, firangi, kattara?
Plus you have yatagans without the typical yatagan curved blades... where do you put them?

Got your idea but I see no conflict with mine. Say Kaskara and you know exactly what it is, blade and hilt. You wouldn't think of a curved blade, right?!

Say Flyssa and you would instantly think at one from examples below, and definitely not at a curved blade sword.

When you say Yatagan, what are you thinking at?! Say if a child would ask you to draw a Yatagan. What would you draw?! A straight bladed Yatagan? I don't think so.

As with respect to the Yatagans with a straight blade, I would call them exactly: Yatagan with straight blade... but only because in this case I can not find a more accurate way to describe it.

But between black and white are a thousand shades of grey... right?!

PS: But then... if we can have a "Yatagan with straight blade" based on the same logic we can also have a "Flyssa with curved blade"... and here I am defeated by my own argument.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Say Flyssa and you would instantly think at one from examples below, and definitely not at a curved blade sword.

So how many curved blade flyssa would you have to see before you change your mind? I think that in the case of flyssa you have to treat them much like yatagan, if the maker meant it to be a flyssa then it is a flyssa.

[Kubur]

OMG

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

So how many curved blade flyssa would you have to see before you change your mind? I think that in the case of flyssa you have to treat them much like yatagan, if the maker meant it to be a flyssa then it is a flyssa.

Exactly my conclusion. I assume you missed it as it is in the PS pf my previous posting.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Exactly my conclusion. I assume you missed it as it is in the PS pf my previous posting.

Sorry about that, your right, I did not see this.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

PS: But then... if we can have a "Yatagan with straight blade" based on the same logic we can also have a "Flyssa with curved blade"... and here I am defeated by my own argument.

[rickystl]

Hi Estcrh.

Hey! Thanks for posting my Flyssa knife in your Post #4 above. LOL
While primarily interested in the guns, every once in a while I see a blade that interests me at the moment. So I purchased it from Artzi. Shown here again with a smaller, straight blade for comparison of size.

Charles: That is a really nice looking blade. And the scabbard looks great. Nice piece.

Rick

[kronckew]

...and thanks for posting my two in post 13, saves me the trouble. the curved one has a blade thickness very close to the straight one and is very sharp.

i'd say a 'flyssa' is any blade made and decorated in traditional tribal designs and materials by the ifllissen peoples of north west africa. normally charicterised by decorative brass covering on hilts and traditional geometric engravings and brass inlays on the blade, with distinctive and traditional geometric patterned carved wood scabbards.

grip, blade, scabbard. all iflissen = flyssa - whatever shape.
nimcha grip, blade, iflissen scabbard= nimcha with an iflissen scabbard
nimcha with an iflissan blade and generic european style scabbard is a nimcha with a flyssa blade.

and so on ad nauseum.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kronckew

.

grip, blade, scabbard. all iflissen = flyssa - whatever shape.

OK
You can add flyssa sword, flyssa dagger...

nimcha grip, blade, iflissen scabbard= nimcha with an iflissen scabbard

OK

nimcha with an iflissan blade and generic european style scabbard is a nimcha with a flyssa blade.

NO
just an abomination of mother nature!

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Kubur

well, maybe not an abomination, just a 'marriage' not made in heaven....

i also would have set the blade further back to have the heel supported better.

and found a more appropriate scabbard. i'll be kind and assume a european captured it w/o a scabbard, liked it, and used what he had to hand. or some dealer tarted it up willy-nilly since...

[ariel]

Well, I would join the side of " authenticity" here.
Algeria and Morocco are next door neighbors, and no man or tribe required a visa to move a bit to the east or two bits to the west. Thus a mix of traditional examples from different localities should not be surprising and, moreover, should be almost expected.
Moreover, unlike regulation European swords that had government-dictated construction, including the smallest screw on the handle, those were hand-made, hammered out by tiny provincial or tribal workshops, without any restrictions or written orders from the " Gtreat Above". Suffice it to look at classical nimchas and flissas: I doubt we will ever be able to find two absolutely identical ones. Blacksmiths made what the buyer ordered: configuration, size, decorative elements etc.


My 5 cents.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by kronckew

...
I also would have set the blade further back to have the heel supported better....

Resurrection.


Just won this two foot Kaybele/Iflyssan sabre & scabbard.
(Billed as an 'Eastern Sword with a well carved scabbard)


This one seems to swell at the blade root entry into the guard/grip, perfect for reinforcing the area for a slashing weapon.

[Jim McDougall]

This was an entertaining thread, one of the countless discussions on the philosophies of edged weapon terminology and proper classification of weapon types. The only reasonable end result was 'it depends'.

It is quite clear that the hilts of these various ethnographic forms are distinctive to certain groups, ethnographically and geographically situated, and diffusion of forms have no boundaries of any kind in these respects.

The so called 'flyssa' sword of the Kabyles has always been a conundrum, and it is a relative late comer to ethnographic edged weapons, with its earliest known reference in 1820s, and which seems to have notably diminished in its most familiar form by later in 19th c . (according to LaCoste).

One of the most puzzling aspects of the flyssa in its traditional form, is how in the world it was used, as in examples with notably long blades they are terribly balanced, the handle is too small in accord, and the hand is not protected in any way. The only reference to these ever being used is a painting which I believe Ariel observed which depicted one of these in use.

As far as I have known, and have been told, these were more a traditional weapon obtained as a kind of rite of passage with young Kabyle men, and the blades had personal embellishments added to the traditional amuletic decoration. While many of these were captured by the French in their campaigns mid 19th c. they were most probably booty from homes rather than taken in any sort of combat.

It is not surprising that tribesmen in the Saharan and Maghrebi regions would lend the traditional designs and hilt styling in varying degree to swords that were indeed intended for use in more famliar manner. The range of such diffusion and degrees of variation and styling as noted, had no bounds, and these variant weapons were more pragmatically inclined to expected use.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by kronckew

...
Just won this two foot Kaybele/Iflyssan sabre & scabbard.
(Billed as an 'Eastern Sword with a well carved scabbard')
...

It's here. 24 in. Overall, blade 18in. Razor sharp too. Blade is 5mm at the root, distal tapered to point. Chord height at centre of blade to spine is 3 cm. Weight 303g. ex scabbard, 405 with scabbard.