Ivory handle Javanese Keris with silver covered scabbard

RSWORD · 5th January 2019, 08:26 PM

The first of my three beefy blade examples. This one has a nice ivory handle, silver mendak and silver covered scabbard. The silver looks to be of good quality. The blade has a very thick gangya and there is no pamor visible but you can see a line all around the edge suggesting an inserted edge plate. Reminds me of what you see on Moro blades. My gut says this blade has some age to it but would love to hear thoughts about the overall piece.

RSWORD · 5th January 2019, 08:31 PM

Pics of the scabbard.

David · 6th January 2019, 01:16 AM

I'm scratching my head a bit on this one Rick. Yes, it does seem to have some age, but i'm having a hard time seeing this blade as Javanese. It just seems off for some reason and i do see what you mean in your comparison to Moro blades. Not that i think it is Moro, mind you. It is certainly outside of pakem with its 21 luks. While it probably isn't too easy to forge a blade with so many luks, this blade is hardly a masterpiece. It appears a bit awkward and the ricikan, such as the greneng and the sogokan are rather poorly carved.
The ivory planar hilt is also a bit of an enigma for me. You can find many variations of these planar style hilts from Madura for sure. But the cecakan generally adhere to a similar form that seems to represent a face. Yours seems to break completely out of that mold and the carver chose a different approach altogether with his motifs. You can see a number of rather unique planar hilts in this thread here, but for the most part when the cecekan are present they have a similar mask design. Or maybe this one is just so stylized that i just don't recognize it as that mask.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=planar+hilt
The silver selut does not seem to be original to this hilt, unless there was some shrinkage to the ivory. Perhaps it is a replacement.
The silver pendok on this piece is outstanding. Really beautiful.
How well does this blade sit in the sheath?

RSWORD · 7th January 2019, 04:34 AM

David,

Thank you for take no the time to add feedback. It can be rather discouraging to share a piece and not get any comments or feedback.

To add to what you have presented. The blade fits very well into the sheath. I don’t know if the selut is original or not but the patina on the hilt as well as the indentations match the current selut. So it has certainly been there for awhile. I do think the ivory has shrunk a bit because the selut is loose.

Like you, I don’t think the blade is Moro but it would have been more clear if I said the construction of the blade reminds me of a Moro blade. The inserted edge plate to each side so perhaps a hard steel edge with a softer core body. The size, thickness at forte and even gangya, make me think this is a fighting blade and this is what makes me think in the ole gut it might be an older blade. Unfortunately, I think a prior owner has sanded the blade because there are a lot of surface scratches and I don’t know how this may have impacted the look of the areas you believe are poorly carved. It doen’t seem awkward to me. It is a substantial blade seemingly meant for business.

The silver pendok is very nice as is the ivory hilt even if not typical. All the more reason to post and hopefully get feedback about it both given your questions about it and my gut feeling about it.

Hope to learn more.

David · 7th January 2019, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Unfortunately, I think a prior owner has sanded the blade because there are a lot of surface scratches and I don’t know how this may have impacted the look of the areas you believe are poorly carved. It doen’t seem awkward to me. It is a substantial blade seemingly meant for business.

The areas that are poorly carved are the Greneng, the Sogokan and Lambe Gajah. I see the scratches you refer to and that may indeed have come from someone aggressively trying to clean this blade, but such cleaning would not have caused these specific aspects of ricikan to appear this way. The greneng seems to have been carved by someone who did not fully understand ron dha or exactly what he was supposed to be carving in the greneng. Unless, of course, someone less skilled tried to receive them at a later date. The sogokan are stiff and fade off at the top end. The Lambe Gajah don't seem fully formed, parts of it just being a cut line. All these ricikan seem awkwardly executed to my eye. The luks, on the other hand, seem rather well formed and as i stated before, this is not an easy job, especially when there are so many. So it is not that i thing the smith was not skilled. A Javanese blade with this many luks (21) is highly unusual. Coupled with what seems to be a lack of understanding about carving ron dha in the greneng i am left with the belief that this blade may have origins outside of Jawa in spite of the dress form. I agree that the blade does indeed seem to be battle ready.

A. G. Maisey · 7th January 2019, 09:06 PM

A blade such as this is not normally made by forging the waves into it, it is the product of stock removal. An oversize bakalan is produced by the smith, which is then handed to a carver to produce the waves and other features.

If we look carefully at the photos, which admittedly have not been taken in a way that makes metal grain easy to see, we can see what I take to a straight grain running the length of the blade. In a blade that has had the waves forged into it the metal grain follows the wave form.

The number of waves makes this blade an anomaly for Jawa. The cold work (ie, carving) is neat enough, but I am unable to pass any worthwhile comment on this blade, it is too far outside any of the parameters with which I am familiar.

The hilt is nicely carved, but again, the details bear no resemblance to what we expect to see in Javanese work.

The wrongko is badly damaged and from a photograph I am unable to comment.

The pendok looks very much like Kota Gede work --- I am not saying it was necessarily made in Kota Gede, but motif and execution is typical of Kota Gede. I think probably pre-1970, even back to late colonial era might not be too far a stretch.

As an example of a keris variant, perfectly collectable, but rather difficult to accept as a true keris.

If I look closely at the details of this complete keris, especially the transition from selut to gonjo, I am inclined to think this item could be the result of a Peninsula or even Singapore commercial effort, not recent by any means, but equally not produced "in culture".

David · 7th January 2019, 09:43 PM

Thanks for your commentary and confirming why i found this keris hard to except as presented. Stock removal makes a lot of sense for the method the luks were formed on this blade. Not sure why i didn't think of it as a possibility. Maybe this head cold i have right now compressing my thought patterns. LOL!

Rick, is the hilt fixed in place. The one thing i would recommend is to turn the hilt 180º for a proper orientation.

Jean · 8th January 2019, 10:25 AM

I basically agree with David and Alan's comments about this kris with some minor differences:
Blades with 21 luks exist in Java but this particular blade does not match with any standard dapur and is probably not originating from Central Java.
The hilt looks Javanese to me but again not from Central Java as the single patra is not standard. The selut is not original to the hilt IMO.
I would tentatively place the origin of this kris to Java North Coast or East Java

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 8th January 2019, 01:56 PM

Yes Jean, blades with 21 luk do exist in Jawa, as do blades with 25, 27, 29, and other odd numbers above 13. In fact in the Surakarta Pakem some of these anomalies do exist, and this particular 21 luk blade is quite close in detail to Kolo Tinantang, and to Kolo Bendu. I did not say that 21 luk blades do not exist in Jawa, I said that it was an anomaly, that is, something that is not normal or expected.

However, to my eye the workmanship although neat, is very hesitant, it is not the work of somebody who has seen and handled many keris, it looks like something that was an attempt at a copy with variation.

The hilt is certainly Javanese in form, but again, it looks like a copy of something by a competent carver, most certainly not the work of a tukang jejeran. As to the selut, I believe that if it is rotated to align the scallops in its rim with the recesses in the hilt, a fit will be achieved.

I respect your opinion of the origin of this keris, but to my eye, there is no smell of Jawa to it, except perhaps for the wrongko.

My feeling about this keris is as already stated, but if we apply logic and knowledge of history, it could also be argued that this keris is a production that could have originated in Borneo.

We know that keris were produced in Borneo for members of the various cultural groups who lived there. These keris resembled the keris that originated in the same place as the people, and their descendants, for whom the keris were made, but with significant variation in detail.

David · 8th January 2019, 04:08 PM

Jean, i also did not state that 21 luk blades from Jawa do not exist. I said they were "high unusual", which i believe they are, no?
But i will side with Alan on the rest. As i stated from the beginning, this keris just doesn't sit right with me as a true Javanese keris. The person who carved the ricikan does not seem to understand what they were trying to achieve. It appears like they were copying something that they did not have full knowledge of. Likewise with the hilt.

RSWORD · 9th January 2019, 04:17 AM

Thank you everyone for the discussion and feedback. Very educational. When I have time and good light will post some additional pictures of the blade as I have a question or two about it.

5th January 2019, 08:26 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Ivory handle Javanese Keris with silver covered scabbard The first of my three beefy blade examples. This one has a nice ivory handle, silver mendak and silver covered scabbard. The silver looks to be of good quality. The blade has a very thick gangya and there is no pamor visible but you can see a line all around the edge suggesting an inserted edge plate. Reminds me of what you see on Moro blades. My gut says this blade has some age to it but would love to hear thoughts about the overall piece. Attached Images

5th January 2019, 08:31 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Pics of the scabbard. Attached Images

6th January 2019, 01:16 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I'm scratching my head a bit on this one Rick. Yes, it does seem to have some age, but i'm having a hard time seeing this blade as Javanese. It just seems off for some reason and i do see what you mean in your comparison to Moro blades. Not that i think it is Moro, mind you. It is certainly outside of pakem with its 21 luks. While it probably isn't too easy to forge a blade with so many luks, this blade is hardly a masterpiece. It appears a bit awkward and the ricikan, such as the greneng and the sogokan are rather poorly carved. The ivory planar hilt is also a bit of an enigma for me. You can find many variations of these planar style hilts from Madura for sure. But the cecakan generally adhere to a similar form that seems to represent a face. Yours seems to break completely out of that mold and the carver chose a different approach altogether with his motifs. You can see a number of rather unique planar hilts in this thread here, but for the most part when the cecekan are present they have a similar mask design. Or maybe this one is just so stylized that i just don't recognize it as that mask. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=planar+hilt The silver selut does not seem to be original to this hilt, unless there was some shrinkage to the ivory. Perhaps it is a replacement. The silver pendok on this piece is outstanding. Really beautiful. How well does this blade sit in the sheath?

7th January 2019, 04:34 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	David, Thank you for take no the time to add feedback. It can be rather discouraging to share a piece and not get any comments or feedback. To add to what you have presented. The blade fits very well into the sheath. I don’t know if the selut is original or not but the patina on the hilt as well as the indentations match the current selut. So it has certainly been there for awhile. I do think the ivory has shrunk a bit because the selut is loose. Like you, I don’t think the blade is Moro but it would have been more clear if I said the construction of the blade reminds me of a Moro blade. The inserted edge plate to each side so perhaps a hard steel edge with a softer core body. The size, thickness at forte and even gangya, make me think this is a fighting blade and this is what makes me think in the ole gut it might be an older blade. Unfortunately, I think a prior owner has sanded the blade because there are a lot of surface scratches and I don’t know how this may have impacted the look of the areas you believe are poorly carved. It doen’t seem awkward to me. It is a substantial blade seemingly meant for business. The silver pendok is very nice as is the ivory hilt even if not typical. All the more reason to post and hopefully get feedback about it both given your questions about it and my gut feeling about it. Hope to learn more.

7th January 2019, 09:06 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	A blade such as this is not normally made by forging the waves into it, it is the product of stock removal. An oversize bakalan is produced by the smith, which is then handed to a carver to produce the waves and other features. If we look carefully at the photos, which admittedly have not been taken in a way that makes metal grain easy to see, we can see what I take to a straight grain running the length of the blade. In a blade that has had the waves forged into it the metal grain follows the wave form. The number of waves makes this blade an anomaly for Jawa. The cold work (ie, carving) is neat enough, but I am unable to pass any worthwhile comment on this blade, it is too far outside any of the parameters with which I am familiar. The hilt is nicely carved, but again, the details bear no resemblance to what we expect to see in Javanese work. The wrongko is badly damaged and from a photograph I am unable to comment. The pendok looks very much like Kota Gede work --- I am not saying it was necessarily made in Kota Gede, but motif and execution is typical of Kota Gede. I think probably pre-1970, even back to late colonial era might not be too far a stretch. As an example of a keris variant, perfectly collectable, but rather difficult to accept as a true keris. If I look closely at the details of this complete keris, especially the transition from selut to gonjo, I am inclined to think this item could be the result of a Peninsula or even Singapore commercial effort, not recent by any means, but equally not produced "in culture".

7th January 2019, 09:43 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Thanks for your commentary and confirming why i found this keris hard to except as presented. Stock removal makes a lot of sense for the method the luks were formed on this blade. Not sure why i didn't think of it as a possibility. Maybe this head cold i have right now compressing my thought patterns. LOL! Rick, is the hilt fixed in place. The one thing i would recommend is to turn the hilt 180º for a proper orientation.

8th January 2019, 10:25 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I basically agree with David and Alan's comments about this kris with some minor differences: Blades with 21 luks exist in Java but this particular blade does not match with any standard dapur and is probably not originating from Central Java. The hilt looks Javanese to me but again not from Central Java as the single patra is not standard. The selut is not original to the hilt IMO. I would tentatively place the origin of this kris to Java North Coast or East Java Regards

8th January 2019, 01:56 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes Jean, blades with 21 luk do exist in Jawa, as do blades with 25, 27, 29, and other odd numbers above 13. In fact in the Surakarta Pakem some of these anomalies do exist, and this particular 21 luk blade is quite close in detail to Kolo Tinantang, and to Kolo Bendu. I did not say that 21 luk blades do not exist in Jawa, I said that it was an anomaly, that is, something that is not normal or expected. However, to my eye the workmanship although neat, is very hesitant, it is not the work of somebody who has seen and handled many keris, it looks like something that was an attempt at a copy with variation. The hilt is certainly Javanese in form, but again, it looks like a copy of something by a competent carver, most certainly not the work of a tukang jejeran. As to the selut, I believe that if it is rotated to align the scallops in its rim with the recesses in the hilt, a fit will be achieved. I respect your opinion of the origin of this keris, but to my eye, there is no smell of Jawa to it, except perhaps for the wrongko. My feeling about this keris is as already stated, but if we apply logic and knowledge of history, it could also be argued that this keris is a production that could have originated in Borneo. We know that keris were produced in Borneo for members of the various cultural groups who lived there. These keris resembled the keris that originated in the same place as the people, and their descendants, for whom the keris were made, but with significant variation in detail.

8th January 2019, 04:08 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Jean, i also did not state that 21 luk blades from Jawa do not exist. I said they were "high unusual", which i believe they are, no? But i will side with Alan on the rest. As i stated from the beginning, this keris just doesn't sit right with me as a true Javanese keris. The person who carved the ricikan does not seem to understand what they were trying to achieve. It appears like they were copying something that they did not have full knowledge of. Likewise with the hilt.

9th January 2019, 04:17 AM	#11
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Thank you everyone for the discussion and feedback. Very educational. When I have time and good light will post some additional pictures of the blade as I have a question or two about it.