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#1 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Italia
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Hi all! Here is a strange beast
![]() ![]() Regards Flavio |
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#2 |
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Location: The Netherlands
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In my opinion, but I'm not knowledgeable on Moro kris, this is not a Borneo piece. Scabbard and hilt point to a Phillipine piece.
Don't think the blade is etched as a keris. The result would be different. Pommel looks more wood to me. I can't discover the ivory. But a nice appearance. |
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#3 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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Hello Henk,
Quote:
![]() ![]() Thus, should be elephant. Flavio you could try measuring the exact angle to determine the genus/species. BTW, I would be interested to see an example of Moro ivory verified as being made from mammoth (which seems to have been widely traded - reaching SE Asia seems not unlikely). Regards, Kai |
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#4 |
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Location: Italia
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Hello Henk,
pommel is definitely ivory and as Kai says, seems more elephant. The point is: the color is due to the age or it was painted to seem older?! What do you think? Thanks |
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#5 |
EAAF Staff
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Location: Louisville, KY
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Elephant ivory I agree. Not Moro etching I also agree. Been glued back together - yes. Been painted - not sure but don't think so.
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#6 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,287
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Photo six shows what looks almost like a scarf weld ?
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#7 |
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Hi Rick,
I have this other kris with something similar, but since the blade is etched in a more "moro traditional way" it is less visible ![]() The horn handle seems also old, but maybe, as Jose says, put togheter with the pommel.... It is entirely unusual to see something like this on a moro kris.... or not? ![]() |
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#8 |
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Not seen a horn hilt with ivory pommel before like this, but I also have not seen everything.
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#9 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 407
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I have seen a few on Chinese pieces. Josh |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
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Hullo everybody,
From the photos posted, my impression is that of a Peninsular Sundang with Maguindanao origin/influence. I have seen similar etching. Pommel can be one piece with the hilt (gilded or not), if made of ebony/horn, or a separate piece of ivory. The cockatoo shape is usually more stylised (smooth). Sometimes, a cup is used instead of a ferrule. Unusual to retain the stirrup. All the best |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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I do not have much knowledge about sundang but would agree with Amuk Murugul. This sundang looks Malay to me or possible Riau.
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#12 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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I agree with Newsteel - the ricikan looks very Malay to me. In my opinion, it could be peninsular judging from the nyepuhan style.....and the kembang kacang
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#13 | |
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Newsteel, sorry for my ignorance, but what is the nyepuhan style and the kembang kacan? Thank you so much Flavio |
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#14 |
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Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
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Hullo everybody,
The scabbard suggests Riau-Lingga. Best. |
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#15 |
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It is also a Sulu style in scabbards as well......
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#16 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
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![]() Quote:
I really don't know what can possibly be judged from the "kembang kacang" in this case as it is far too eroded to make a call on. I have also seen this style of scabbard with Sulu kris. I don't see anything here that would clearly indicate a peninsula origin. ![]() |
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#17 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
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I'm still wondering if that's a scarf, or lap weld on the original blade .
![]() Could we see the other side please ? I don't recall, in my own experience, ever seeing a scarf weld on a sundang blade . |
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#18 |
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Location: Italia
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Hi Rick,
On the other side there is a similar sign, soon I will post some pics. Thanks |
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#19 |
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David,
You say you can't see anything that indicate a peninsula origin, but how do you explain the strangeness of this kris? like the non-moro etching and the horn handle? I ask just to know ![]() Regards Flavio ![]() |
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#20 |
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Location: Chicago area
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Flavio, It' different but the pics don't tell the whole story, at least for me.
First you have to figure what was original to the sword & I would guess nothing. The scabbard is top grade but I doubt it's very close to be as old as the sword. It looks to me as Bugis/Malay. I'm not sure about the blade itself. Could it be that it was over-cleaned with some sort of acid or chemicals? The stirrup & metal rings look fairly new. If someone carried that sword everyday they would be dented/scraped. Surprised there is not more opinions on the hilt pommel. I don't think it's horn, but I don't know what type of Ivory. Some sort of tooth? It looks like it broke, was repaired & filled; then stained to make the repairs less noticed. |
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#21 |
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Thank you Bill! For sure the pommel was restored, there is some kind of putty... What I'd like to know is if also the rest of the handle is restored/replaced since a handle of horn is very strange for an "original" moro, but if it was from another place than could be original.... Anyway the collar around the pommel shows some losses, I will post some pics.
Thanks FLavio |
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#22 |
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I know nothing about these blades or even the scabbard timber origins but looking at the Schreger angles the pommel is 100% Elephant ivory definatly not mamooth or any form of sea tooth..
Spiral |
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#23 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
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![]() Quote:
How is the fit of the blade in the sheath anyway? Was this sheath made for this blade? |
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#24 |
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Here are some pics of both sides of the blade, the putty on the pommel and the fit with the scabbard
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#25 |
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Flavio,
These pictures now give me the impression that this is not horn but something over the wood. IT can fool and look like horn. Again, I would say that twisted silver or jute was there originally..... |
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#26 |
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Jose,
maybe the "horn" is somethng different, but for sure is not the putty that you can see where the pommel meets the handle. I can't be able to find the mineral spirit you told me. Can I use something else to see if the handle and the pommel were stained? Maybe another kind of diluent? Thanks FLavio |
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#27 |
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Location: Italia
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Well, I have used a strong diluent (nitro) both on the pommel and the handle. Nothing is changed, so both were not stained and the color is due to the patination.
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#28 |
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No more comments?
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#29 | |
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Location: Sweden
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![]() Quote:
As you know I had the same impression(quite resembling Bill's) when you mailed me before you posted it here. Both the way the blade is etched as well as the fittings looks very much Malay Peninsular to me. So I assume that most (pure) Moro collectors don't want to comment if they don't think it's Moro in the first place? Michael |
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#30 |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
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Malay.
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