Sword for identification

GIO · 6th September 2010, 04:37 PM

Anybody can identify this sword ?
The Toledo blade is 77 cms. long.
Is it possible to find a suitable hilt ?

Marc · 6th September 2010, 06:25 PM

At first glance I would say 18th c., made "a l'ancienne" / "a la antigua" to fit a smallsword/court sword/military sword hilt; probably in Solingen. Either that, or a refitted 17th c. blade, but that's less probable for what (relatively) little can be seen in these pics.
All of this just in theory, of course. There's a lot of things I would like to see from up close before passing a judgement for real, not the least of them the tang, or a better picture of the forte with the inscription.
Not to mention the condition of both blade and scabbard is extremely good. Nothing that should make us jump to any precipitate conclusion, surely, but worth considering with caution, nonetheless, in a sad world like ours...

Gavin Nugent · 7th September 2010, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Anybody can identify this sword ?
The Toledo blade is 77 cms. long.
Is it possible to find a suitable hilt ?

Marc has provided you with ID for sure and even looking at the blurring images and seeing the fine form of the entire blade and the cleaned but pitted tang, my money is on it being a period blade.
As for the hilt, patience, communication with many and lots of scouring of box lots and old swords with blades in bad condition at auctions will eventually reveal what it is you need to complete the task, then comes the refit, a job in itself.
Not being my main field of interest, I would first suggest you find the hilt style that was commonly seen on blades of this nature and start your quest.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 7th September 2010, 02:04 AM

This is an interesting blade, and quite honestly in the most remarkable condition I have ever seen for one of these, which as Marc notes, is a Solingen made blade intended for Spanish export.
It seems these were made around the first part of the 18th century for export to the colonies where traditional colonial gentlemen still favored the well known cuphilt rapiers. I have seen numbers of these that were found in shipwrecks in the America's and all were unmounted, so clearly intended for local furbishing. The same was the case later in the century with the blades with the 'Spanish motto' and were hexagon sectioned military blades for mounting in the colonies. These are known to have been found often in bundles (Scollard collection 1970s) and were also Solingen made in the same manner.

The scabbard here is incredibly crisp and seems military from early 19th century....better photos would help on the blade also. It looks like there is pitting on the tang, and unusually crisp 'anchor' marking.

All best regards,
Jim

GIO · 7th September 2010, 01:10 PM

Many thanks for the answers.
I post some better pics which could help.
The condition of the scabbard is due to a restoration, as the black paint was missing in big areas.

Marc · 7th September 2010, 04:44 PM

Thank you for the additonial pictures, Gio.
Just a couple of questions... is the end of the tang threaded, or is my eyes playing tricks on me again? Also, is a mark what I see at the beginning of the tang? Could it be possible to have a close-up?

In any event, a nice blade in an unusually excellent condition.

fernando · 7th September 2010, 07:14 PM

Hi Gio,
... following Marc's impressions.
Blade indeed looking too young, for the period it appears to represent

.
Do we discern some letters, among the other symbols on the blade, as being some initials for IN TOLEDO ?
Isn't the maker mark (?) on the tang a bit too close from the blade base?
... just wondering

Dmitry · 7th September 2010, 07:30 PM

Imho, the blade is 1600s-1700s. The shiny appearance is a result of overzealous cleaning with sandpaper or another invasive method, in the not so distant past.
Museums of the world are full of clean shiny blades. I don't hold the crappy state of the blade, or vice versa, a mirror-bright shine as a sign of age, or lack thereof.

fernando · 7th September 2010, 07:54 PM

I am far from considering your impressions as not being correct, Dmitry, but i wasn't necessarily judging this blade youth by being overcleaned ... on the contrary.
It's the depth of the symbols and specially the anchor that i find rather considerable; specially if the blade, as you suggest, has been 'thinned' by the sandpapering or polishing endurance, such depth being reduced.

GIO · 8th September 2010, 04:56 PM

Hi Marc and Fernando,
Thanks a lot for your kind answers.
Yes, the end of the tang is threaded and what appears at the beginning of the tang is a mark (see first pic).
On the blade appear a few letters and what appear decorative carvings.
The letters seem to be : E N T O L on one side and N X T O L on the other.
Another older sword of mine (see second pic) has a similar inscription : N T O L

Marc · 9th September 2010, 01:17 PM

Just to be completely honest, I haven't discarded a more or less modern replica (pretty well done, that's true), I just lack enough data, at the moment, to say much more than what it has been already said. Here's where things like a traceable provenance kick in to help, for example, and what turns every case in a particular world by itself.
Oh, well, that's what keeps things interesting, too...

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2010, 02:40 PM

My concerns are the rather heavily embellished 'x's ; that the fuller runs to the root of the blade; the typical Toledo type makers cartouche, often with a T is absent in the blade root area and most apparant, the unusually crisp 'anchor' is within the fuller rather than at its terminus.
Also, I have never seen one of these tangs threaded.

But, as Marc has well noted, thats what keeps things interesting, and it would seem that as this type of blade was heavily exported specifically for hilting locally produced or refurbishing damaged rapiers in Spain's colonies.

Dmitry · 9th September 2010, 03:15 PM

Looking at the up-close photo, I will stand myself corrected. This was no sand paper. It was a belt-grinder and sand-paper.
There are two options here for me.
1. The threaded tang indicates that this blade was mated to a pommel that was not original to it. In other words, this blade was recently taken off a composite sword. The blade decorations may have been refreshed and re-cut. We see that in the antique firearms market.
2. The other explanation for a threaded tang is that the blade is 19th century, from an old style officer's sword-rapier, like an Austrian infantry sword, or a British household cavalry dress sword, both from the first quarter of the 1800s. Blades of this style were in vogue with the upper echelons of the officer class for a short time, and were produced to imitate the earlier styles.

GIO · 9th September 2010, 03:52 PM

Thanks again to everybody.
Frankly, one of my first assumptions was it could be an Austrian civil servant sword for ceremonies. Does the scabbard in no way help ?

stephen wood · 10th September 2010, 12:20 AM

I think it has been ground.

celtan · 11th September 2010, 05:29 PM

That's not its scabbard
Manuel

celtan · 11th September 2010, 05:30 PM

GIO · 15th September 2010, 11:48 AM

Hi Manuel,
thanks for your remarks, but in my opinion the blade has to be related to an XIX cent. environment. In this case the scabbard (which fits perfectly) could be considered as proper.
The blade is shorter and thicker if compared to that of a XVII cent. rapier (see my very first pic), and also the conditions of the blade makes me suppose of a not too long life.
Best regards to all cooperating friends.
GIO

6th September 2010, 04:37 PM	#1
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Sword for identification Anybody can identify this sword ? The Toledo blade is 77 cms. long. Is it possible to find a suitable hilt ? Attached Images

7th September 2010, 01:10 PM	#5
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Many thanks for the answers. I post some better pics which could help. The condition of the scabbard is due to a restoration, as the black paint was missing in big areas. Attached Images

8th September 2010, 04:56 PM	#10
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Hi Marc and Fernando, Thanks a lot for your kind answers. Yes, the end of the tang is threaded and what appears at the beginning of the tang is a mark (see first pic). On the blade appear a few letters and what appear decorative carvings. The letters seem to be : E N T O L on one side and N X T O L on the other. Another older sword of mine (see second pic) has a similar inscription : N T O L Attached Images

6th September 2010, 06:25 PM	#2
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	At first glance I would say 18th c., made "a l'ancienne" / "a la antigua" to fit a smallsword/court sword/military sword hilt; probably in Solingen. Either that, or a refitted 17th c. blade, but that's less probable for what (relatively) little can be seen in these pics. All of this just in theory, of course. There's a lot of things I would like to see from up close before passing a judgement for real, not the least of them the tang, or a better picture of the forte with the inscription. Not to mention the condition of both blade and scabbard is extremely good. Nothing that should make us jump to any precipitate conclusion, surely, but worth considering with caution, nonetheless, in a sad world like ours...

7th September 2010, 02:04 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	This is an interesting blade, and quite honestly in the most remarkable condition I have ever seen for one of these, which as Marc notes, is a Solingen made blade intended for Spanish export. It seems these were made around the first part of the 18th century for export to the colonies where traditional colonial gentlemen still favored the well known cuphilt rapiers. I have seen numbers of these that were found in shipwrecks in the America's and all were unmounted, so clearly intended for local furbishing. The same was the case later in the century with the blades with the 'Spanish motto' and were hexagon sectioned military blades for mounting in the colonies. These are known to have been found often in bundles (Scollard collection 1970s) and were also Solingen made in the same manner. The scabbard here is incredibly crisp and seems military from early 19th century....better photos would help on the blade also. It looks like there is pitting on the tang, and unusually crisp 'anchor' marking. All best regards, Jim

7th September 2010, 04:44 PM	#6
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Thank you for the additonial pictures, Gio. Just a couple of questions... is the end of the tang threaded, or is my eyes playing tricks on me again? Also, is a mark what I see at the beginning of the tang? Could it be possible to have a close-up? In any event, a nice blade in an unusually excellent condition.

7th September 2010, 07:14 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Gio, ... following Marc's impressions. Blade indeed looking too young, for the period it appears to represent . Do we discern some letters, among the other symbols on the blade, as being some initials for IN TOLEDO ? Isn't the maker mark (?) on the tang a bit too close from the blade base? ... just wondering

7th September 2010, 07:30 PM	#8
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Imho, the blade is 1600s-1700s. The shiny appearance is a result of overzealous cleaning with sandpaper or another invasive method, in the not so distant past. Museums of the world are full of clean shiny blades. I don't hold the crappy state of the blade, or vice versa, a mirror-bright shine as a sign of age, or lack thereof.

7th September 2010, 07:54 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I am far from considering your impressions as not being correct, Dmitry, but i wasn't necessarily judging this blade youth by being overcleaned ... on the contrary. It's the depth of the symbols and specially the anchor that i find rather considerable; specially if the blade, as you suggest, has been 'thinned' by the sandpapering or polishing endurance, such depth being reduced.

9th September 2010, 01:17 PM	#11
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Just to be completely honest, I haven't discarded a more or less modern replica (pretty well done, that's true), I just lack enough data, at the moment, to say much more than what it has been already said. Here's where things like a traceable provenance kick in to help, for example, and what turns every case in a particular world by itself. Oh, well, that's what keeps things interesting, too...

9th September 2010, 02:40 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	My concerns are the rather heavily embellished 'x's ; that the fuller runs to the root of the blade; the typical Toledo type makers cartouche, often with a T is absent in the blade root area and most apparant, the unusually crisp 'anchor' is within the fuller rather than at its terminus. Also, I have never seen one of these tangs threaded. But, as Marc has well noted, thats what keeps things interesting, and it would seem that as this type of blade was heavily exported specifically for hilting locally produced or refurbishing damaged rapiers in Spain's colonies.

9th September 2010, 03:15 PM	#13
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Looking at the up-close photo, I will stand myself corrected. This was no sand paper. It was a belt-grinder and sand-paper. There are two options here for me. 1. The threaded tang indicates that this blade was mated to a pommel that was not original to it. In other words, this blade was recently taken off a composite sword. The blade decorations may have been refreshed and re-cut. We see that in the antique firearms market. 2. The other explanation for a threaded tang is that the blade is 19th century, from an old style officer's sword-rapier, like an Austrian infantry sword, or a British household cavalry dress sword, both from the first quarter of the 1800s. Blades of this style were in vogue with the upper echelons of the officer class for a short time, and were produced to imitate the earlier styles.

9th September 2010, 03:52 PM	#14
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Thanks again to everybody. Frankly, one of my first assumptions was it could be an Austrian civil servant sword for ceremonies. Does the scabbard in no way help ?

10th September 2010, 12:20 AM	#15
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	I think it has been ground.

11th September 2010, 05:29 PM	#16
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	That's not its scabbard Manuel

11th September 2010, 05:30 PM	#17
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679

15th September 2010, 11:48 AM	#18
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	Hi Manuel, thanks for your remarks, but in my opinion the blade has to be related to an XIX cent. environment. In this case the scabbard (which fits perfectly) could be considered as proper. The blade is shorter and thicker if compared to that of a XVII cent. rapier (see my very first pic), and also the conditions of the blade makes me suppose of a not too long life. Best regards to all cooperating friends. GIO