Sword for identification

[ariel]

Evgeny,
You have the sword in your hands and it is difficult to argue with you about the configuration of the blade.
The impression of recurvature at the distal part of the blade may indeed be an optical illusion due to the axial bend there. But I still get an impression that the proximal 2/3 of the blade do show some saber-like curvature.
Can you put a long straight ruler along the spine from the quillon to the beginning of the bend and see whether there is a gap?
Crimea was populated by multiple ethnicities , from the Golden Horde to Europeans. The pommel does not resemble any “ oriental” example and the deep wide fuller is also, IMHO, not typical for “oriental” blades of 14-16 century or earlier. There are , however 2 Golden Horde swords of the 12th century ( excavated at Tekstilschik and Kairka) with distinctly yataghan-like recurved blades.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by ariel

Evgeny,
You have the sword in your hands and it is difficult to argue with you about the configuration of the blade.
The impression of recurvature at the distal part of the blade may indeed be an optical illusion due to the axial bend there. But I still get an impression that the proximal 2/3 of the blade do show some saber-like curvature.
Can you put a long straight ruler along the spine from the quillon to the beginning of the bend and see whether there is a gap?
Crimea was populated by multiple ethnicities , from the Golden Horde to Europeans. The pommel does not resemble any “ oriental” example and the deep wide fuller is also, IMHO, not typical for “oriental” blades of 14-16 century or earlier. There are , however 2 Golden Horde swords of the 12th century ( excavated at Tekstilschik and Kairka) with distinctly yataghan-like recurved blades.

Hi Ariel,
At this moment the sword isn't in my hands, but I asked to do such kind of measurement of the curvature of the blade. The result is on photo. So I was mistaken when I said that the blade is straight - it has a clear curvature.

[ariel]

Thanks!
Sorry for bothering you again, but this pic looks more informative than the earlier ones.
What is the width of the blade by the handle vs. close to the tip? Is there some kind of yelman-like configuration?

I also do not see much similarity with the " steppes" ( nomadic) swords. It looks at least a couple of centuries younger. I would not exclude some Ottoman or even Zaporozhian cossacs Kilij/pala.
You can look for books by Denis Toichkin ( in Ukrainian). I am not feeling well these days ( nothing terrible or dangerous, just some hip muscle tear), stay in bed most of the time and have codein with every meal and any occasional snacks. Cannot think very straight and am useless as a " consultant":-(((
Sorry.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks!
Sorry for bothering you again, but this pic looks more informative than the earlier ones.
What is the width of the blade by the handle vs. close to the tip? Is there some kind of yelman-like configuration?

I also do not see much similarity with the " steppes" ( nomadic) swords. It looks at least a couple of centuries younger. I would not exclude some Ottoman or even Zaporozhian cossacs Kilij/pala.
You can look for books by Denis Toichkin ( in Ukrainian). I am not feeling well these days ( nothing terrible or dangerous, just some hip muscle tear), stay in bed most of the time and have codein with every meal and any occasional snacks. Cannot think very straight and am useless as a " consultant":-(((
Sorry.

Ariel, you do not bother me at all, on the contrary, I am very pleased with your participation in the discussion

The width of the blade is 3,1 cm near the crossguard, 2,8 cm in the middle part and 3,1 cm near the tip. So the blade is almost the same width along the entire length.

Get well soon! Поправляйтесь!

[Jim McDougall]

I wanted add some of my own perspective here in line with the excellent views that have been placed. While I have a great deal of familiarity with the swords of Asia, the Steppes and Central Asia into Europe, I cannot claim the focused expertise of the members who have posted on this thread.

I observed earlier that the sword in the OP reminded me of Kirghiz type swords of the Steppes from recollections of line drawings on these swords in books I did not have on hand presently and from research over 25 years ago. As Ian noted from earlier threads there were elements of similarity to 'Siberian' sabers in certain studies.

Here I would point out that the tunkou, while a predominant element of these types of sabers, is not a defining element of 'all' Steppes swords, though these are prevalent it seems in the varying types from the many tribal groups.

In revisiting the resources I had been recalling finally, I found the plate of swords I had mentioned., including 'Kirghiz' examples. What was notable in the plate was illustrating the Kirghiz practice (not exclusive to them, but notable to Steppes tribal groups in degree) of ritually 'killing' a sword before depositing in a burial by heating and bending it rendering it no longer viable.

This is why I brought this up earlier.....influence.

In "The Long Sword and Scabbard Slide in Asia", William Trousdale, 1975, p.118...it discusses these and that "...we have traced a great circular diffusion route, from China through Central Asia to the Meditteranean and Black Sea regions and BACK (capitals mine) eastward across the north Eurasian steppe to the borders of China".
It is noted that this was not a closed circle, and northern extensions are hypothetical, and various offshoots were of course prevalent.

This emphatically illustrates the complex and profound diffusion of these sword forms ACROSS the Steppes, into European regions and others including Balkan, Baltic, of course Byzantine (incl. Meditteranean), in an extended wave over centuries of nomadic migrations.

The Kirghiz, tribes of northern parts of the Steppes gradually had assimilated into Mongol hordes by the early 13th c. along with other Turkic groups.
As we know these Mongol hordes moved westward and were well established in East Europe, notably Hungary.

To think that the influences of these numerous Turkic groups were not carried into Mongol hordes or any other tribal assimilations and included in varied degree and interpretation as these groups went through these regions seems a bit arbitrary.

Here I would note that Crimea in the times considered was primarily Tatar, and as noted Byzantine in southern regions. The Tatars were of course of Steppes tribal groups, while the Byzantines had weapons which had in degree absorbed both influences from the east (as noted), as well as the Romans (early Roman swords seem often to have had 'cuffs' over blade roots).

I hope these notes will substantiate my suggestions of Steppes thus Eastern influences which of course were filtered through Iranian conduit as well.
The pommel is an interesting but not defining element of the sword we discuss.

These long swords and various elements accompanying them were quite literally key in the evolution of the saber and swords as used over centuries in the west, and reflected many aspects and elements of the diverse forms carried westward.

We know the alleged provenence of this early sword, so with that we can presume the potential classification of groups it may have belonged to.
However attempting to classify this sword specifically by form alone seems it would be futile. Regardless, it is an outstanding sword reflecting the numerous influences I have suggested as possible factors.

Plate 1: from "the Mongol Warlords", David Nicolle, p.41

Plate 2: from "Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era 1050-1350". 1988,
#1443, a saber from Esztergum., Hungary (10-11th c) near Visigrad, first capital of Hungary.
It is noted these were based on earlier examples of Central Asian forms used by Turkic warriors.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

We know the alleged provenence of this early sword, so with that we can presume the potential classification of groups it may have belonged to.
However attempting to classify this sword specifically by form alone seems it would be futile. Regardless, it is an outstanding sword reflecting the numerous influences I have suggested as possible factors.

Thanks for the detailed write up Jim summarizing your earlier points and finding the source you were referring to. Of course the sword we are discussing and these early medieval Byzantine and Islamic swords as a whole derive from a myriad of influences and steppes sabres have their part to play in that. However I think in the case of the two sabres I highlighted in my last post the influences may go a little bit the other way around. I think its important to not just focus on visual form but methods of construction and while I am certainly no expert in this field, rather simply an enthusiast, a typical steps guard of the type you illustrated is manufactured in rather a different manner than the castings used for the 'cuff' guards we are discussing. Certainly both can feature quite short 'arms' and have other similarities and of course features and elements of both blend over time but I think there are still some distinctions in place in the time frame we are discussing.

Rather I think steppes blade styles finding their way into fashion is as key as the guards, leading to the interesting piece under discussion. But that's just my two cents and I don't want to derail this thread into a long discussion on the entire history of the eastern and near eastern sword. Perhaps just to leave a small point that Byzantine interactions with heavy cavalry of the Sassanids and then their wars with various Islamic factions had a huge influence on their military as much as the Steppes incursions into Europe.

Suffice to say the area this was found in had a myriad of groups and influences and steppes sabres as well as Byzantine designs, which in turn borrowed from a wide variety of sources. For me its quite clear what Evgeny's sword is based on the images shown but of course nothing beats having it in the hand for a closer examination. I look forward very much to seeing it properly conserved!

[cornelistromp]

see the examples of Baranov sword type Galovo.

in following link

http://truehistoryshop.com/byzantine-militarist-swords/


The sleeve of the sword of post 1 indeed seems reversed because the whiskers are not pointing towards the point.

Then the question of dating remains.
were there In the 11th century single-edged blades with such a pronounced fuller ?, or has this type Galovo been common for centuries?

best,

[Iain]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

see the examples of Baranov sword type Galovo.

in following link

http://truehistoryshop.com/byzantine-militarist-swords/


The sleeve of the sword of post 1 indeed seems reversed because the whiskers are not pointing towards the point.

Then the question of dating remains.
were there In the 11th century single-edged blades with such a pronounced fuller ?, or has this type Galovo been common for centuries?

best,

That link basically uses all the papers and sources I posted.

Thanks for the clear picture Evgeny of the blade.

These cuff hilts can appear with a curved blade. There's actually a couple hiding in the link you posted although with slightly different designs but the family resemblence is clear. In an image from the collection of a private Bulgarian citizen. I'm attaching the original image here for reference, 4th sword from the right and second from the left.