Info on Goose Wing Dao? 雁翅刀?

KuKulzA28 · 22nd September 2011, 04:32 AM

Does anyone have information on the Goose-wing saber? I have been looking for information on this style of dao blade, but I haven't found much... does anyone here have examples of this style of blade? Seems like outside of Goose-quill, Willow leaf, and Ox-tail there is much less information on dao such as the pian dao, cloud head saber, and goose-wing, etc...

Thanks in advanced!

Nathaniel · 22nd September 2011, 05:52 AM

KuKulzA28,

Interesting post...I do not know much about this type either. Do you have a picture of what one looks like? I've seen pictures of some blades in books that have "bumpy" angled tip like a wing edge or kind of like a cock's comb.

KuKulzA28 · 22nd September 2011, 07:09 AM

Here's one I found in The Complete Taiji Dao: The Art of the Chinese Saber By Yun Zhang:

KuKulzA28 · 25th September 2011, 07:57 PM

Anyone has info at all? If not I understand...

I also wonder, if it has any performance advantages compared to other dao styles...
It seems to be a straighter style of blade like the Goose quill... perhaps it'll behave the same?

EDIT: here's more pictures I found on google...

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/4083/yanchir1.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7898/yanchir2.jpg
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2387/yanchir3.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2874/yanchir4.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2921/yanchir5.gif

josh stout · 25th September 2011, 11:29 PM

The yan chi dao is a variant of the willow leaf dao with a clipped tip. The better examples look like the ones you have posted, but a simple clipped tip is more common. According to Scott Rodell, the "goose wing" name is a Chinese collectors term, and he seemed to think that the name "phoenix wing" appears more often in the regulations.

The clipped tip brings the point in closer line with the hand making for a slightly improved thrusting ability. You have noted that the curvature is more subtle than that of most willow leaf dao, and a slightly reduced curve would also improve the thrusting ability. I do not see them as similar to yan mao dao in design because the reduced curve of the yan chi still makes them different form the yan mao which really only curves at the tip. Overall, I see them as a way to combine thrusting ability with a curve, so in that way they are similar to a yan mao, but still they are in the willow leaf camp.

Josh

KuKulzA28 · 26th September 2011, 02:15 AM

Hi josh, long time no talk!

Thanks for the information. So in essence, we can break down the major dao types as so?

Yan Mao Dao - straight w/ curved tip, thus less effective slicer
Liu Yie Dao - gently curved thus a better slicer without totally sacrificing the thrust
Yan Chi Dao - less curved but has a clip point, thus retains some slicing ability with a better thrust
Pian Dao - optimized for slicing like a tulwar blade
Niu Wei Dao - optimized for cleaving/cutting through, losing an effective thrust

Now what piques my interest is how come Yan-mao and Liu-yie were more popular, followed by the niu-wei in the Qing dynasty? If the Yan-chi had both slicing and stabbing ability, it, in some ways, has improved utility over both the yan-mao and liu-yie right? Or was the advantage so small that it didn't make a huge difference?

EDIT: Also, many of these "clip points" have bumps and don't seem to actually be sharpened... unlike the clip points on bowie knives which are often sharpened or very narrow almost like a second edge. So the Yan-chi blade shape can be thrusted better perhaps, but wouldn't those bumps, etc. somewhat impede a clean, deep stab?

Gavin Nugent · 27th September 2011, 01:59 PM

I have three fine books here and I know two of them show these beautiful sabres but they are all in Chinese...Can you read Chinese...if you can drop me an email and I'll get what I can across to you and you can present your translations/study here if you like.

Gav

KuKulzA28 · 27th September 2011, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

I have three fine books here and I know two of them show these beautiful sabres but they are all in Chinese...Can you read Chinese...if you can drop me an email and I'll get what I can across to you and you can present your translations/study here if you like.

Gav

I can read some Chinese, and what I cannot read I can have reliably translated. After all, I am Taiwanese... and I have a lot of literate family members

Email sent.

Nathaniel · 28th September 2011, 05:33 AM

Very nice Gavin! KuKulzA28, Love to hear what you find out

josh stout · 8th October 2011, 07:27 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to declare the yanchi dao a separate blade type. I have seen dao with standard willow leaf curvature with the clipped tip.

You are getting into some deep and muddy waters with this issue. Here is what I have gathered together as best as I can.

The clipped tip is a very old form, perhaps from the Tang dynasty, best associated with the Song and early Ming, where they appear in period art as short chopping dao with clipped tips. Sometimes these can be referred to as “yanchi”, sometimes “yantou” sometimes they are called “phoenix wing” or “demon head”. I think they are most often called “po” dao in the regulations, and they are characterized more by size than tip shape. These short choppers were still made in the Qing where the simpler clipped tip with a straight or hooked clip is more generally associated with the late Qing and the wavy form is associated with the early Qing. As always dating of Chinese things is often impressionistic and lacking in certainty, so this is not much of a guideline. The later simple clipped tip chopper may in turn have been related to the dadao, but here cause and effect become blurred because the clipped tip has been associated with pole arms from the beginning. My guess is that the images shown previously of wavy tipped willow leaf sabers were of early Qing dao, but Ming is also possible.

I see the longer willow leaf types to be elongated “modernizations” of earlier chopping types.

One of the dao types where I most often see clipped tips is in the village “jian shaped dao”, where the clipped tip clearly allows them to thrust as a jian.

Below are some examples:

1. A Yi chopper in a style very similar to things seen in Song illustrations. Many minority forms are quite conservative and retain styles from much earlier periods.

2. A wavy tipped dao knowledgeable people have called “demon head”, “yanchi” or “yantou”.

3. A village jian shaped dao.

I hope this helps.
Josh

Gavin Nugent · 8th October 2011, 07:45 PM

Here is one along the same lines, I think from memory is was listed as an executioners sword now with a New York collector.
To my eye, clearly a cut down pole arm.

KuKulzA28 · 9th October 2011, 06:12 AM

So in essence it is not so much a style of its own, but a variation of blade-tip?

Hmm... seeing your photos that makes sense... perhaps a clip-point stabbing feature and an aesthetic quality lumped under the same term.

22nd September 2011, 04:32 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Info on Goose Wing Dao? 雁翅刀? Does anyone have information on the Goose-wing saber? I have been looking for information on this style of dao blade, but I haven't found much... does anyone here have examples of this style of blade? Seems like outside of Goose-quill, Willow leaf, and Ox-tail there is much less information on dao such as the pian dao, cloud head saber, and goose-wing, etc... Thanks in advanced!

22nd September 2011, 07:09 AM	#3
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Here's one I found in The Complete Taiji Dao: The Art of the Chinese Saber By Yun Zhang: Attached Images

25th September 2011, 07:57 PM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Anyone has info at all? If not I understand... I also wonder, if it has any performance advantages compared to other dao styles... It seems to be a straighter style of blade like the Goose quill... perhaps it'll behave the same? EDIT: here's more pictures I found on google... http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/4083/yanchir1.jpg http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7898/yanchir2.jpg http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2387/yanchir3.jpg http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2874/yanchir4.jpg http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2921/yanchir5.gif Last edited by KuKulzA28; 25th September 2011 at 08:57 PM.

27th September 2011, 01:59 PM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	References I have three fine books here and I know two of them show these beautiful sabres but they are all in Chinese...Can you read Chinese...if you can drop me an email and I'll get what I can across to you and you can present your translations/study here if you like. Gav

8th October 2011, 07:27 PM	#10
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I wouldn't go so far as to declare the yanchi dao a separate blade type. I have seen dao with standard willow leaf curvature with the clipped tip. You are getting into some deep and muddy waters with this issue. Here is what I have gathered together as best as I can. The clipped tip is a very old form, perhaps from the Tang dynasty, best associated with the Song and early Ming, where they appear in period art as short chopping dao with clipped tips. Sometimes these can be referred to as “yanchi”, sometimes “yantou” sometimes they are called “phoenix wing” or “demon head”. I think they are most often called “po” dao in the regulations, and they are characterized more by size than tip shape. These short choppers were still made in the Qing where the simpler clipped tip with a straight or hooked clip is more generally associated with the late Qing and the wavy form is associated with the early Qing. As always dating of Chinese things is often impressionistic and lacking in certainty, so this is not much of a guideline. The later simple clipped tip chopper may in turn have been related to the dadao, but here cause and effect become blurred because the clipped tip has been associated with pole arms from the beginning. My guess is that the images shown previously of wavy tipped willow leaf sabers were of early Qing dao, but Ming is also possible. I see the longer willow leaf types to be elongated “modernizations” of earlier chopping types. One of the dao types where I most often see clipped tips is in the village “jian shaped dao”, where the clipped tip clearly allows them to thrust as a jian. Below are some examples: 1. A Yi chopper in a style very similar to things seen in Song illustrations. Many minority forms are quite conservative and retain styles from much earlier periods. 2. A wavy tipped dao knowledgeable people have called “demon head”, “yanchi” or “yantou”. 3. A village jian shaped dao. I hope this helps. Josh Attached Images

22nd September 2011, 05:52 AM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	KuKulzA28, Interesting post...I do not know much about this type either. Do you have a picture of what one looks like? I've seen pictures of some blades in books that have "bumpy" angled tip like a wing edge or kind of like a cock's comb.

25th September 2011, 11:29 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The yan chi dao is a variant of the willow leaf dao with a clipped tip. The better examples look like the ones you have posted, but a simple clipped tip is more common. According to Scott Rodell, the "goose wing" name is a Chinese collectors term, and he seemed to think that the name "phoenix wing" appears more often in the regulations. The clipped tip brings the point in closer line with the hand making for a slightly improved thrusting ability. You have noted that the curvature is more subtle than that of most willow leaf dao, and a slightly reduced curve would also improve the thrusting ability. I do not see them as similar to yan mao dao in design because the reduced curve of the yan chi still makes them different form the yan mao which really only curves at the tip. Overall, I see them as a way to combine thrusting ability with a curve, so in that way they are similar to a yan mao, but still they are in the willow leaf camp. Josh

26th September 2011, 02:15 AM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Hi josh, long time no talk! Thanks for the information. So in essence, we can break down the major dao types as so? Yan Mao Dao - straight w/ curved tip, thus less effective slicer Liu Yie Dao - gently curved thus a better slicer without totally sacrificing the thrust Yan Chi Dao - less curved but has a clip point, thus retains some slicing ability with a better thrust Pian Dao - optimized for slicing like a tulwar blade Niu Wei Dao - optimized for cleaving/cutting through, losing an effective thrust Now what piques my interest is how come Yan-mao and Liu-yie were more popular, followed by the niu-wei in the Qing dynasty? If the Yan-chi had both slicing and stabbing ability, it, in some ways, has improved utility over both the yan-mao and liu-yie right? Or was the advantage so small that it didn't make a huge difference? EDIT: Also, many of these "clip points" have bumps and don't seem to actually be sharpened... unlike the clip points on bowie knives which are often sharpened or very narrow almost like a second edge. So the Yan-chi blade shape can be thrusted better perhaps, but wouldn't those bumps, etc. somewhat impede a clean, deep stab?

28th September 2011, 05:33 AM	#9
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Very nice Gavin! KuKulzA28, Love to hear what you find out

8th October 2011, 07:45 PM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Here is one along the same lines, I think from memory is was listed as an executioners sword now with a New York collector. To my eye, clearly a cut down pole arm. Attached Images

9th October 2011, 06:12 AM	#12
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	So in essence it is not so much a style of its own, but a variation of blade-tip? Hmm... seeing your photos that makes sense... perhaps a clip-point stabbing feature and an aesthetic quality lumped under the same term.