Wootz Shamshir for translation and comment please

[katana]

Hoorah.....
a double whammy...my first wootz blade and my first persian Shamshir ........with a cartouche (gold infill) and scabbard with script (?) on the ring band . I'd appreciate a translation please (I'm assuming its a maker's mark)

Comments and info greatly appreciated

David

[TimW]

It says 'made in Hong Kong - Cheap copy'. Just kidding... it's a beautiful sword. I'm eager to see what the others make of the cartouche.

[ALEX]

Congratulations on a first wootz shamshir!
The cartouche reads: "Walaed Shah Abbas", meaning "Reign of Shah Abbas" as a reference to the Safavid king Abbas (1587-1629). The blade is 18th/19th Century. Nice find.

[katana]

Thank you Tim and Alex for your replies....

Tim, you got the 'cheap' part right....when I bought this both the seller and I didn't know it was Wootz..

Hi Alex,
thank you for the translation .....18thC-19thC sounds good As I said before the shamshir was not sold as a wootz bladed one. I only had pictures to go on before purchase, and mildly suspected it could be wootz. So was a very nice surprise to discover it was Alex, would you have any idea to the script (?) on the scabbard ring ?

I have only quickly cleaned the blade and tried to etch with Ferric chloride....the result wasn't that good. The latest etch was with vinegar ...a better result but the wootz isn't as clear and obvious as I would like.

Has anyone any suggestions to improve the contrast ? Would lemon juice be a better option....

Kind Regards David

[Dom]

to complete what Alex translated already
the easiest part ...

à +

Dom

[katana]

Thanks Dom ,

I'll be posting 2 more swords soon, (that need translations)...so don't think, my friend, that you 'got off lightly' .....the other translations will be a little 'harder'

All the best
David

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by katana

Thank you Tim and Alex for your replies....

Tim, you got the 'cheap' part right....when I bought this both the seller and I didn't know it was Wootz..

Hi Alex,
thank you for the translation .....18thC-19thC sounds good As I said before the shamshir was not sold as a wootz bladed one. I only had pictures to go on before purchase, and mildly suspected it could be wootz. So was a very nice surprise to discover it was Alex, would you have any idea to the script (?) on the scabbard ring ?

I have only quickly cleaned the blade and tried to etch with Ferric chloride....the result wasn't that good. The latest etch was with vinegar ...a better result but the wootz isn't as clear and obvious as I would like.

Has anyone any suggestions to improve the contrast ? Would lemon juice be a better option....

Kind Regards David

Salaams, Great Sword ! I am drumming up support for a workshop library on the forum (see my new thread) It would have been ideal for example if you could simply go to the Forum workshop A to Z index say... "Wootz" restoration where you could find 10 ways to bring out the watered steel surface . What I know is its tricky... but occasionally a simple technique works. You have blade rust spots as well I see and wondered what you will use to take those out? I understand that Ferrous Chloride is quite agressive and vinegar can also be especially if hot. I have had some success with lemon salt dissoved in water so you immerse the article in it for a few hours (but keep checking the progress say half hourly)and I have heard that coke cola is excellent.. I have a difficult sword that I am restoring and I am about to immerse it in coke cola for 4 hours. The other technique I have used is taking off rust spot with aluminium baking foil which works quite well ( this apparently works at molecular level but please dont ask me how) You simply use the foil like sandpaper and rub away. Thats also a technique for sharpening scissors ~ Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[katana]

Salaams Ibrahiim,
thank you. Yes, I have seen your thread and I do think it a good idea and will post my thoughts


Kind Regards David

[tom hyle]

Is that a hardening line, or what is that?

[tom hyle]

Any thoughts about the extra hole in the end cap?

[katana]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Is that a hardening line, or what is that?

Well spotted Tom (couldn't find a smillie for "hawkeyed" ),
yes I believe it is where the edge has been hardened ....if you look at the picture of the entire sword...the line appears to be almost half the width of the blade running to the point.

As I understand it, hardening/heat treating wootz is very difficult to do without 'damaging' the patterning....or am I mistaken.

Kind Regards David

[tom hyle]

apparently if you do it wrong all the important crystals disolve into the steel matrix, leaving you with simple but very high carbon "mono steel"

[AJ1356]

Beautiful Shamshir, It is Safavid ofcourse, the inscription on the balde reads ولایت سلطان شاه عباس welaayat e Sultan Shah 'Abaas - the maker has made the outline out of the word Sultan. the inscription on the sheet is part of a what usually would say نصر منا الله و فتح القریب it is something that one would find on many islamic weapons, which means victory comes from Allah and conquering (loose meaning) is close.

[mohd]

Hi David, it's a beautiful piece!
Congrats to you for the acquisition

Originally Posted by katana

.. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=73426&stc=1 ..

I've checked it and I saw something which might provide some light to it.

An the top is the script الـلــه that reads as allh

ا ± a
لـ ± l
لـ ± l
ـه ± h

On the second line is the script نــصــر مــن that reads as nšr mn

نـ ± n (i.e. without a dot)
ـصـ ± š
ـر ± r

مـ ± m
ـن ± n (i.e. without a dot)

And at the bottom is the script وفــتــح that reads as wfth

و ± w
فـ ± f (i.e. without a dot)
ـتـ ± t (i.e. without two dots)
ـح ± h

Then the whole scripts is actualy نــصــر مــن الـلــه وفــتــح that reads as nšr mn allh wfth
In the current Malay spelling it reads as našrun min Allahi wafathun.
The meaning in English is "help from Allah and victory".
It is derived from a part of verse in Alqur'an 61:13.
IMHO the incomplete extract from the verse was purposely done so that the one who carries the sword do not have to strictly follow the Muslim etiquette in regards of Alquran.
The lack of dots in the script is a usual practice as the adding of dots and markings is done at the later stage which is after the period of the companions.

Hope this little helps brings some light to you, David

mohd

[katana]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Beautiful Shamshir, It is Safavid ofcourse, the inscription on the balde reads ولایت سلطان شاه عباس welaayat e Sultan Shah 'Abaas - the maker has made the outline out of the word Sultan. the inscription on the sheet is part of a what usually would say نصر منا الله و فتح القریب it is something that one would find on many islamic weapons, which means victory comes from Allah and conquering (loose meaning) is close.

Thank you very much AJ1356 for your help, appreciated . I am very pleased with the Shamshir.

Kind Regards David

[katana]

Originally Posted by mohd

Hi David, it's a beautiful piece!
Congrats to you for the acquisition


I've checked it and I saw something which might provide some light to it.

An the top is the script الـلــه that reads as allh

ا ± a
لـ ± l
لـ ± l
ـه ± h

On the second line is the script نــصــر مــن that reads as nšr mn

نـ ± n (i.e. without a dot)
ـصـ ± š
ـر ± r

مـ ± m
ـن ± n (i.e. without a dot)

And at the bottom is the script وفــتــح that reads as wfth

و ± w
فـ ± f (i.e. without a dot)
ـتـ ± t (i.e. without two dots)
ـح ± h

Then the whole scripts is actualy نــصــر مــن الـلــه وفــتــح that reads as nšr mn allh wfth
In the current Malay spelling it reads as našrun min Allahi wafathun.
The meaning in English is "help from Allah and victory".
It is derived from a part of verse in Alqur'an 61:13.
IMHO the incomplete extract from the verse was purposely done so that the one who carries the sword do not have to strictly follow the Muslim etiquette in regards of Alquran.
The lack of dots in the script is a usual practice as the adding of dots and markings is done at the later stage which is after the period of the companions.

Hope this little helps brings some light to you, David

mohd

Hi Mohd,
thank you for taking the time to explain the translation . Your idea that the phrase is incomplete so that the Muslim etiquette (with regards Alquran) does not have to be so strictly adhered to.....makes a lot of sense

Kind Regards David

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by katana

Hoorah.....a double whammy...my first wootz blade and my first persian Shamshir

And now the wanting starts for another and another and another....such is the way of wootz and curved blade...

Congrats

Gav

[katana]

Originally Posted by freebooter

And now the wanting starts for another and another and another....such is the way of wootz and curved blade...

Congrats

Gav

G'day Gav...
already tried 'aversion therapy' as a pre-emptive treatment ... before 'wootz fever' strikes...it's not working

All the best
David