Help with Philippine Sword

t_c · 26th January 2009, 12:39 AM

I was recently reading on old interview with Leo Giron the founder of Giron Arnis Escrima (aka "Bahala Na"). In the interview he describes a sword he calls a "talonason". Is anyone familiar with this term and what type of weapon he is refering to (what's it look like)? He served in Northern Luzon during WWII and also also grew up? in Luzon - Pangasinan, if that helps narrow down the dialect...
Any info is greatly appreciated, thanks!

Quoted from the interview (last Q/A):
"Our weapons of choice were the bolo knife or talonason, a long knife whose overall length is 36 inches long."

t_c · 28th January 2009, 09:17 PM

No ideas, eh?

OK, does anyone know what "longer" weapons were used in Luzon, if there were any specific types, etc. around 3 feet long or at least significantly longer than your average bolo? I'll settle for a rough idea or any leads for further research.
Thanks in advance!

Rick · 28th January 2009, 09:22 PM

There are some miniature forms of both Moro and non Moro ew's shown and discussed in this thread , also a link in that to another with more examples.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8261

Robert · 29th January 2009, 01:36 AM

T_C, I only have two swords from the Philippines that are over thirty inches in length and both are probably from Luzon. I could post a picture of them if you would like me to but both of these show strong Spanish influence and I doubt seriously that either are what you are looking for. It is a shame that the description he gave was not more complete.

Robert

t_c · 29th January 2009, 06:51 AM

Rick: Thanks for the lead, I'll have to dig into it some more (only have had time for cursory look).

Robert: That would be great, I'd really appreciate it. I'm sure it was a matter of practicality and training that drove what he chose to use. I doubt you could be too picky in war time when you just got off the sub and relied on the locals to outfit you. I'd be interested in seeing some examples of long swords from the PI anyways.

thanks,
tom

P.S. Here's an interesting excerpt from the interview regarding one of his encounters in WWII for those interested:

FMA: What was the most memorable encounter you had with the enemy?
LG: Well it is hard to try and choose one particular encounter because they were all very horrifying. One Bonsai attack comes to mind, in early June 1945 on a rainy day. A large number of enemy soldiers charged our position. We formed a wedge or triangle formation, two on the side and one as a point man. I was point man. Just like any Bonsai charge the enemy was always noisy. Yelling and shouting, they are not afraid to die. The Filipino guerrillas, on the other hand, chew their tobacco, grit their teeth and wing their bolos, chop here, jab there, long bolos, short daggers, pointed bamboo, pulverized chili peppers with sand deposited in bamboo tubes to spray so the enemy cannot see. By now my adrenaline must have gone up. One bayonet and samurai sword came simultaneously. The samurai sword was in front of me while the bayonet was a little to the left. With my left hand I parried the bayonet. I blocked the sword coming down on me. The bayonet man went by and his body came in line with my bolo. That’s when I came down to cut his left hip. The Samurai was coming back with a backhand blow. I met his triceps with the bolo and chopped it to the ground. After the encounter I wiped my face with my left hand to clear my eyes from the rain and found bloodstains on my face. There were many more encounters. But our job was not to be detected by the enemy; our mission was to send back vital information on the enemy to headquarters.

Gonzalo G · 29th January 2009, 08:01 AM

The only reference I have found to this sword, in several languajes, comes from this single interview to Leo Giron. Maybe in philippino languaje there is some other reference.
Regards

Gonzalo

Nonoy Tan · 29th January 2009, 06:29 PM

Hi Tom,

You may want to inspect this book: "The collection of primitive weapons and armor of the Philippine islands in the United States National museum, (Smithsonian institution. United States National museum. Bulletin 137)"

It has a list of Philippine weapons in their local names.

Unfortunately, I am travelling and do not have my copy to check for you

Dimasalang · 29th January 2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

The only reference I have found to this sword, in several languajes, comes from this single interview to Leo Giron. Maybe in philippino languaje there is some other reference.
Regards

Gonzalo

Being Leo Giron was born in Pangasinan, aside from Tagalog(the universal language), most likely he was raised speaking Ilocano and Pangasinan dialects. My family on my mothers side stems from Pangasinan(she speaks all 3 languages). I just spoke with my uncle, he has never heard of the name or term "talonason"...not to say it is not of Ilocos, but he has never heard the term in or around Pangasinan. In WWII most guerrilla fighting took place in Northern Luzon(majority Ilocano country). Maybe someone who is pure Ilocano or of another dialect from northern Luzon may know. Nearly all of them have different names for sword or bolo.

Luzon may just be one island, but it is the largest main island and it is huge(42,000sq miles). Pangasinan was a heavily controlled and influenced province during the Spanish era. Actually, nearly all of Luzon was heavily influenced by the Spanish, except for the remote mountain regions of northern Luzon...so I wouldn't think of the sword to be truly unique or out of the ordinary. This sword may just remain a mystery since GM Leo seems to be the only one who has ever referred to it.

Rick · 29th January 2009, 07:44 PM

May be found on this page under Philippine ..

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/index.html

t_c · 29th January 2009, 10:01 PM

Thanks everyone for all your help. I'll have to go through Krieger again. I don't recall seeing anything in there that fits the description, but I cruised through it pretty quickly. Haste makes waste....

tom

Robert · 29th January 2009, 11:16 PM

T_C, Here is the picture I promised. The two on the top are the longest. Te top one is 33 inches in length and the one under it is about 31 inches. All of these are from the Philippines and most but not all of these are probably from Luzon. I have removed the scabbards (from the ones that still had them)

so you can see the blades better. I hope that this might help. I have plenty of other shorter bolos but as I said before nothing of the length you are talking about.

Robert

t_c · 30th January 2009, 05:31 AM

Thanks Robert - it's a huge help! Those are great to see - nice collection.

ariel · 30th January 2009, 04:48 PM

Didn't we just discussed a long sword from Luzon?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8116

Is it possible that it is the answer to your query?

Robert · 30th January 2009, 05:20 PM

Hi Ariel, I can't believe I forgot about that sword. Before it can be decided if it is from Luzon we are waiting for a picture of the end of the pommel. What I'm wondering is if Mr Giron could have been referring to a sansibar but using a different name for it? Some of them were pretty long and when used with a bolo would be a deadly combination in the hands of a trained fighter.

Just thinking out loud.

Robert

weakroofblock · 11th October 2011, 08:19 PM

Found this thread while searching for info. Hope no one minds me resurrecting it and adding some info that comes from Giron's associates for anyone else who stumbles across this thread.

Leo Giron did indeed use a 36" blade during his WWII service in the Philippines. You can see pictures of him wielding the blade in Giron Escrima: Memories of a Bladed Warrior. I scanned this one from p. 229 which shows him delivering a #9 strike in the Giron system with the talonason.

The blade itself has no guard, just a socket, and is lighter and faster than it looks. Giron wielded it Larga Mano style against soft targets. According to the stories I have heard it was made for him as a gift somewhere in N. Luzon. He landed in Ilocos Norte in August of 1944 and spent time in Abra, La Union and Ilocos Sur while gathering intel on Japanese troop movements in the months leading up to the Battle of Lingayen Gulf.

Giron spoke Ilocano. According to Ilocano Dictionary and Grammar by Carl R. Galvez Rubino 'talunasán' is another Ilocano word for a buneng or bolo.

In addition to the talonason pictured above I'm told that Sgt. Giron also carried a daga and a smaller bolo about 24" in length with a brass guard and a long clip point that he called a calasiao which was used as a backup for the talonason or when the battle got too close to wield a larger blade effectively. I do not have any pictures of the actual calasiao.

Dimasalang · 11th October 2011, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weakroofblock

Found this thread while searching for info. Hope no one minds me resurrecting it and adding some info that comes from Giron's associates for anyone else who stumbles across this thread.

Leo Giron did indeed use a 36" blade during his WWII service in the Philippines. You can see pictures of him wielding the blade in Giron Escrima: Memories of a Bladed Warrior. I scanned this one from p. 229 which shows him delivering a #9 strike in the Giron system with the talonason.

The blade itself has no guard, just a socket, and is lighter and faster than it looks. Giron wielded it Larga Mano style against soft targets. According to the stories I have heard it was made for him as a gift somewhere in N. Luzon. He landed in Ilocos Norte in August of 1944 and spent time in Abra, La Union and Ilocos Sur while gathering intel on Japanese troop movements in the months leading up to the Battle of Lingayen Gulf.

Giron spoke Ilocano. According to Ilocano Dictionary and Grammar by Carl R. Galvez Rubino 'talunasán' is another Ilocano word for a buneng or bolo.

In addition to the talonason pictured above I'm told that Sgt. Giron also carried a daga and a smaller bolo about 24" in length with a brass guard and a long clip point that he called a calasiao which was used as a backup for the talonason or when the battle got too close to wield a larger blade effectively. I do not have any pictures of the actual calasiao.

Thanks for sharing! I have always wondered about these actual WWII guerrilla swords.

As for the "calasiao" bolo. I know a lot of times in the Philippines blades were named after the place of where the panday(blacksmith or bladesmith) lived. I also have family in Calasiao, Pangasinan...which just so happens to be right within Lingayen Gulf(where a lot of WWII action took place and guerrillas roamed). I remember driving through Calasiao on my last visit to the Philippines, and seeing a few stands selling blades...so I kinda figured there was a panday district in that place. I did a quick search and found this article on the Calasiao Pandays.
http://business.inquirer.net/money/f...anday-lives-on

Quoted from the article:
Bernardo Roy, 66, one the local panday, says the backyard industry was started by two brothers from Binmaley town before World War II.

One of them was his grandfather, but Roy could not recall his name. What Roy remembers from his mother's story was the two men were horseshoe makers who ventured into blacksmithing in Calasiao.

t_c · 12th October 2011, 04:14 AM

Thanks for the extra info - much appreciated. It's nice to hear these stories - I'm a little less involved with Bahala Na these days, but the background info is always nice. Wish I had spent more time in stockton.... (good group of folks out there). "WeakRoofBlock" !? Not Bahala Na man - ours is strong!

weakroofblock · 12th October 2011, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t_c

Thanks for the extra info - much appreciated. It's nice to hear these stories - I'm a little less involved with Bahala Na these days, but the background info is always nice. Wish I had spent more time in stockton.... (good group of folks out there). "WeakRoofBlock" !? Not Bahala Na man - ours is strong!

My roof blocks were weaker a few thousand ago when I started my blog.

Bahalana

mross · 12th October 2011, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weakroofblock

Found this thread while searching for info. Hope no one minds me resurrecting it and adding some info that comes from Giron's associates for anyone else who stumbles across this thread.

Leo Giron did indeed use a 36" blade during his WWII service in the Philippines. You can see pictures of him wielding the blade in Giron Escrima: Memories of a Bladed Warrior. I scanned this one from p. 229 which shows him delivering a #9 strike in the Giron system with the talonason.

The blade itself has no guard, just a socket, and is lighter and faster than it looks. Giron wielded it Larga Mano style against soft targets. According to the stories I have heard it was made for him as a gift somewhere in N. Luzon. He landed in Ilocos Norte in August of 1944 and spent time in Abra, La Union and Ilocos Sur while gathering intel on Japanese troop movements in the months leading up to the Battle of Lingayen Gulf.

Giron spoke Ilocano. According to Ilocano Dictionary and Grammar by Carl R. Galvez Rubino 'talunasán' is another Ilocano word for a buneng or bolo.

In addition to the talonason pictured above I'm told that Sgt. Giron also carried a daga and a smaller bolo about 24" in length with a brass guard and a long clip point that he called a calasiao which was used as a backup for the talonason or when the battle got too close to wield a larger blade effectively. I do not have any pictures of the actual calasiao.

That is a monster of a blade. It looks almost to big to use. I have never seen anything like it until now. Very cool great thread.

FilAmfighter1 · 16th October 2011, 01:55 AM

Just a note, Gm Leo's son has a copy of this blade made by Robert Ulep. I just saw this blade in training with him at the 2nd Annual Mataw Guro Conference. Look in then Mataw Guro website for pictures in the informative issue

weakroofblock · 17th October 2011, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FilAmfighter1

Just a note, Gm Leo's son has a copy of this blade made by Robert Ulep. I just saw this blade in training with him at the 2nd Annual Mataw Guro Conference. Look in then Mataw Guro website for pictures in the informative issue

Many people personally associated with Leo Giron own training blades that are based on the original that can be seen in YouTube videos and on DVD from Masters Magazine, all of which may help to give an idea of how the original handled in use. The picture above is, to my knowledge, a picture of the original blade for documentational purposes.

According to Tony Somera's account in the Masters Magazine Giron Escrima: Larga Mano DVD, Giron had this weapon made specifically to deal with the length of the Type 99 Rifle/Type 30 Bayonet combo and the Shin Gunto. The weapon could, by this accounting, be a unique, non-traditional design, at least in length. The blade shape itself resembles many shorter Luzon blades I've seen.

26th January 2009, 12:39 AM	#1
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Help with Philippine Sword I was recently reading on old interview with Leo Giron the founder of Giron Arnis Escrima (aka "Bahala Na"). In the interview he describes a sword he calls a "talonason". Is anyone familiar with this term and what type of weapon he is refering to (what's it look like)? He served in Northern Luzon during WWII and also also grew up? in Luzon - Pangasinan, if that helps narrow down the dialect... Any info is greatly appreciated, thanks! Quoted from the interview (last Q/A): "Our weapons of choice were the bolo knife or talonason, a long knife whose overall length is 36 inches long."

29th January 2009, 11:16 PM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	T_C, Here is the picture I promised. The two on the top are the longest. Te top one is 33 inches in length and the one under it is about 31 inches. All of these are from the Philippines and most but not all of these are probably from Luzon. I have removed the scabbards (from the ones that still had them) so you can see the blades better. I hope that this might help. I have plenty of other shorter bolos but as I said before nothing of the length you are talking about. Robert Attached Images

11th October 2011, 08:19 PM	#15
weakroofblock Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: California Posts: 3	Found this thread while searching for info. Hope no one minds me resurrecting it and adding some info that comes from Giron's associates for anyone else who stumbles across this thread. Leo Giron did indeed use a 36" blade during his WWII service in the Philippines. You can see pictures of him wielding the blade in Giron Escrima: Memories of a Bladed Warrior. I scanned this one from p. 229 which shows him delivering a #9 strike in the Giron system with the talonason. The blade itself has no guard, just a socket, and is lighter and faster than it looks. Giron wielded it Larga Mano style against soft targets. According to the stories I have heard it was made for him as a gift somewhere in N. Luzon. He landed in Ilocos Norte in August of 1944 and spent time in Abra, La Union and Ilocos Sur while gathering intel on Japanese troop movements in the months leading up to the Battle of Lingayen Gulf. Giron spoke Ilocano. According to Ilocano Dictionary and Grammar by Carl R. Galvez Rubino 'talunasán' is another Ilocano word for a buneng or bolo. In addition to the talonason pictured above I'm told that Sgt. Giron also carried a daga and a smaller bolo about 24" in length with a brass guard and a long clip point that he called a calasiao which was used as a backup for the talonason or when the battle got too close to wield a larger blade effectively. I do not have any pictures of the actual calasiao. Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 11th October 2011 at 09:20 PM.

16th October 2011, 01:55 AM	#20
FilAmfighter1 Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Torrance Posts: 49	GM Leo's Blade Just a note, Gm Leo's son has a copy of this blade made by Robert Ulep. I just saw this blade in training with him at the 2nd Annual Mataw Guro Conference. Look in then Mataw Guro website for pictures in the informative issue

28th January 2009, 09:17 PM	#2
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	No ideas, eh? OK, does anyone know what "longer" weapons were used in Luzon, if there were any specific types, etc. around 3 feet long or at least significantly longer than your average bolo? I'll settle for a rough idea or any leads for further research. Thanks in advance!

28th January 2009, 09:22 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	There are some miniature forms of both Moro and non Moro ew's shown and discussed in this thread , also a link in that to another with more examples. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8261

29th January 2009, 01:36 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	T_C, I only have two swords from the Philippines that are over thirty inches in length and both are probably from Luzon. I could post a picture of them if you would like me to but both of these show strong Spanish influence and I doubt seriously that either are what you are looking for. It is a shame that the description he gave was not more complete. Robert

29th January 2009, 06:51 AM	#5
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Rick: Thanks for the lead, I'll have to dig into it some more (only have had time for cursory look). Robert: That would be great, I'd really appreciate it. I'm sure it was a matter of practicality and training that drove what he chose to use. I doubt you could be too picky in war time when you just got off the sub and relied on the locals to outfit you. I'd be interested in seeing some examples of long swords from the PI anyways. thanks, tom P.S. Here's an interesting excerpt from the interview regarding one of his encounters in WWII for those interested: FMA: What was the most memorable encounter you had with the enemy? LG: Well it is hard to try and choose one particular encounter because they were all very horrifying. One Bonsai attack comes to mind, in early June 1945 on a rainy day. A large number of enemy soldiers charged our position. We formed a wedge or triangle formation, two on the side and one as a point man. I was point man. Just like any Bonsai charge the enemy was always noisy. Yelling and shouting, they are not afraid to die. The Filipino guerrillas, on the other hand, chew their tobacco, grit their teeth and wing their bolos, chop here, jab there, long bolos, short daggers, pointed bamboo, pulverized chili peppers with sand deposited in bamboo tubes to spray so the enemy cannot see. By now my adrenaline must have gone up. One bayonet and samurai sword came simultaneously. The samurai sword was in front of me while the bayonet was a little to the left. With my left hand I parried the bayonet. I blocked the sword coming down on me. The bayonet man went by and his body came in line with my bolo. That’s when I came down to cut his left hip. The Samurai was coming back with a backhand blow. I met his triceps with the bolo and chopped it to the ground. After the encounter I wiped my face with my left hand to clear my eyes from the rain and found bloodstains on my face. There were many more encounters. But our job was not to be detected by the enemy; our mission was to send back vital information on the enemy to headquarters.

29th January 2009, 08:01 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	The only reference I have found to this sword, in several languajes, comes from this single interview to Leo Giron. Maybe in philippino languaje there is some other reference. Regards Gonzalo

29th January 2009, 06:29 PM	#7
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Hi Tom, You may want to inspect this book: "The collection of primitive weapons and armor of the Philippine islands in the United States National museum, (Smithsonian institution. United States National museum. Bulletin 137)" It has a list of Philippine weapons in their local names. Unfortunately, I am travelling and do not have my copy to check for you

29th January 2009, 07:44 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Kreiger's Plates May be found on this page under Philippine .. http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/index.html

29th January 2009, 10:01 PM	#10
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Thanks everyone for all your help. I'll have to go through Krieger again. I don't recall seeing anything in there that fits the description, but I cruised through it pretty quickly. Haste makes waste.... tom

30th January 2009, 05:31 AM	#12
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Thanks Robert - it's a huge help! Those are great to see - nice collection.

30th January 2009, 04:48 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Didn't we just discussed a long sword from Luzon? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8116 Is it possible that it is the answer to your query?

30th January 2009, 05:20 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Ariel, I can't believe I forgot about that sword. Before it can be decided if it is from Luzon we are waiting for a picture of the end of the pommel. What I'm wondering is if Mr Giron could have been referring to a sansibar but using a different name for it? Some of them were pretty long and when used with a bolo would be a deadly combination in the hands of a trained fighter. Just thinking out loud. Robert

12th October 2011, 04:14 AM	#17
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Thanks for the extra info - much appreciated. It's nice to hear these stories - I'm a little less involved with Bahala Na these days, but the background info is always nice. Wish I had spent more time in stockton.... (good group of folks out there). "WeakRoofBlock" !? Not Bahala Na man - ours is strong!