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#1 |
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This dagger (which I'm calling a khanjar) recently came into my possession. I'd be curious to know anyone's opinion on it. If it's old, how old and where from, or am I going to be sad to learn it's made for ebay? It has one of the more artistically accurate animals I've seen on a knife, but the horns do seem a tad outlandish and impractical for a actual-use knife. And, if it's actually period-made, if anyone would be willing to PM me a valuation, I'd be grateful.
Also I'd love to see any photos similar figural hilts in member's collections. Thanks! |
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#2 |
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Yes, Indo-Persian Khanjar.
The handle is old, with spots of rust, tarnish and pitting. The blade, however, is pristine and the wootz pattern is very similar to modern Indian examples. There is some black mastique oozing from the slit in the handle. Epoxy? Where did you get it from? Rajastan? I am sorry for my paranoid remarks, but that's IMHO. |
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#3 |
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Ariel you came first:-), but I would also like to know, what are the flaws on the blade in the third picture?
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#4 | |
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#5 |
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The black lines on the blade in photo 3 are easier to see in the photo than in person, but the upper one looks like a crack or surface forging flaw, and the lower one definitely looks like a crack, particularly because it has a similar line directly on the other side of the blade. I can just barely feel their presence rubbing the point of a toothpick across them.
I can't tell what the black material holding the blade in place is. Is black an unlikely color for an authentic piece? The blade doesn't seem much more pristine than a real antique (authenticated by Bonham's) kard I have. But, on the khanjar's blade there's no rust/etc at the base of the blade where it meets the hilt (ie in the hard-to-clean places), that does point more towards newness, I guess, particularly with the hilt having pitting. I didn't get the knife in Rajastan, no. It was in the US. And I'm slightly confounded that now there are opposite opinions on what's old and what isn't. Maybe both are new? Or old? And the hilt design; it seems plausible as an old piece? |
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#6 | |
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#7 |
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I feel relatively certain that it's a marriage; the blade and hilt did not originate together. I base this on the condition of the hilt, especially near the blade insertion area, relative to the seeming total lack of corrosion on the blade.
When you finally decide you can no longer live with the tension caused by this dichotomy, I'd be pleased to take it off your hands. |
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#8 |
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![]() ![]() Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd August 2016 at 08:51 AM. |
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#9 |
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It is not uncommon for broken blades from other weapons to be incorporated into daggers... I think the damage near the hilt is because of this re match.... Nice hilt and a good example of the Zoomorphic nature of these daggers.
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#10 | |
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#11 | |
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I do not know of any newly made Indian blades that have the look of yours and as for it being fairly clean looking this can be explained in several ways. Unless someone can come up with an example of a similar looking wootz blade that is definitely newly made I would assume that the blade is old and the handle is one of two possibilities, original / old or more recent. Last edited by estcrh; 23rd August 2016 at 09:07 PM. |
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#12 | |
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Regards, Detlef |
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#13 |
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First, why Indo-Persian?! I am pretty sure this is a 100% Indian khanjar (AKA Mughal Dagger) that has nothing to do with Persia.
I like to believe that I am pretty familiar with current Indian production of swords & daggers. In my opinion, both hilt and blade are old. All recent production examples I have seen have hilts carved in stone (jade, soapstone, agate, jasper, etc.), bone, fake ivory, etc. but definitely not iron. Why?! Because Iron is very dificult to carve. Moreover, your hilt does not bear any characteristic of machining and is almost certainly chiseled and filed by hand. As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century, and that's precisely when I believe your hilt was made. As with regards with the wootz blade, it appears to be crystalline wootz that was produced by the end of the classic wootz period, namely the first half of 19th century. However, crystalline wootz quite similar to this is also currently produced but it is quite rare and definitely highly prized. Since yours displays very fine watering, as close as it gets to the classic wootz, I believe it is old because if it were newly produced, it would have been more expensive than classic wootz and would have definitely been mounted in a more exclusive hilt. As with regards to the crack, it is possible the blade had an earlier mount but was damaged and then was remounted in the current hilt. However, I believe that this may have happened at least a century ago. My conclusion is that you have an excellent classic example of a 19th century Mughal dagger. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 24th August 2016 at 10:43 AM. |
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#14 |
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While I have no problem with the idea that the blade might have been installed in the hilt after, perhaps some time after, the hilt came into being, I suspect it may have been made for a weapon of the relatively same dimensions as it currently exists. My thinking stems from the contours of the blade itself, with the gracefully thickened point and general recurved contours. In other words, the blade seems to me to be pretty much the ideal size and shape for the role it is playing.
This is not to deny the possibility of its having been broken, presumably near the hilt, in an earlier installation. This would also help account for the flaws seen near the hilt. I'm comfortable locating its origin to an area between the Persian Gulf and the Irrawaddy River, below the Hindu Kush. It is undoubtedly older than I am. |
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#15 |
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Thanks for the opinions and discussion; it's really interesting to learn a little of the thought process that goes into these evaluations.
Thanks also to Ibrahiim for the photos of other ram's head daggers. Aside from being nice pieces, they help me feel more confident that the protruding horns on my knife aren't ridiculously over-decorative. I looked at some photos of wootz reproductions and billets on ebay, and I really can't tell the difference between them and my knife. But I also can't tell the difference between them and photos of period wootz, so I think I'm the real point of failure there. Is there somewhere (site/book/forum thread) with an explanation (and better yet side-by-side comparison photos) of what to look for? Or is it more a matter of experience and "feel"? |
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#16 | |
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#17 | |
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However, my bet is that they are both old pieces (at least the hilts) but recently decorated. The golden one appears to have a new pattern welded blade, while the silver one appears to have an original wootz blade. It is very easy to take a dagger like the one in the original posting, replace old/damaged parts (blade, hilt or only fixtures) if necessary, clean it nicely, apply Koftgari lavishly, furbish it with a new matching scabbard and sell it for 3-5 times the price it would have raised in its original state. ![]() This is a very, very widely spread practice in India these days as Koftgari artists are abundant and their work comes cheap. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 24th August 2016 at 07:25 AM. |
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#18 | |||
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#19 |
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There is a good reason to be a bit suspicious when in doubt.
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#20 | |
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Here is one from the Art Institute of Chicago, I have some doubts about this one as well, 17th to 18th century????
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#21 | |
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Now this one shows some real wear, what you would expect from a genuinely old dagger.
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#22 | |
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Possibly the golden one to be completely new, blade scabbard and all Koftgary for sure but the hilt not so sure. It can simply be an old hilt cleaned and decorated anew. Since the whole surface of the hilt is covered in Koftgari, it would be almost impossible to say whether is old or new. ![]() As with regards, to the auction house knowing very well what they were selling... based on my experience with quite reputed auction houses, I have serious doubts about that as well. I have seen myself magnificent antique pieces selling dirt cheap (even acquired a couple of such pieces) and obvious modern replicas selling for extortionately high prices. And I'm talking about reputed and specialised auction houses not about obscure/unknown back-yard ones. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 24th August 2016 at 10:30 AM. |
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#23 |
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Not wanting to get into a ravel over age on examples of rams heads I have posted I simply loaded on some Rams Heads...Clearly these Hilts have entered the traditions ...and should be viewed as such. The project dagger with probable replacement blade is typical of Indian style.. and is a good example.
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#24 | |
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If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it. |
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#25 | |
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Two almost identical new pattern welded blades. Two almost identical new scabbards. Two almost identical new koftgari works. Two almost identical ram hilts... that are almost certainly new. ![]() Excellent point! Yet, this doesn't impair my initial oppinion that the dagger of the original posting is a 19th century piece, both hilt and blade. |
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#26 | |
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#27 | |
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The one in question seems to have no wear to the edges and in fact has red rust which is sometimes a sign if a newly made iron item. As for the pitting, this can be made through various methods but how do you explain the lack of wear as seen in the hilt of #21? It may be old and then again it may be new, you have to be a bit skeptical in cases like this. |
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#28 | |
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"If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it." My point is that apparently one that you have already accept as old has indeed been posted, establishing that such hilts did exist in antiquity. ![]() |
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#29 | |
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I am asking if anyone has any other examples to compare with. |
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#30 | |
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