"Eastern" sword: need opinions

ariel · 23rd March 2007, 05:38 PM

Just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...7824&rd=1&rd=1
I am puzzled: the entire sword looks very European to me, with a military blade, kind of a standard " Mameluke saber" used by the French, the British and by who knows who else.
However...
The blade bears very strange markings: the Turk Head, the coat of arms, the garland, the Passau/Solingen "Man-in-the-Moon" and a cartouche with inscription. Total smorgasboard...
All very crudely incised, the incisions intrude on the cutting edge, the cartouche has totally indecipherable text etc.
The impression is that the markings were done by a Non-European who wanted this sword to pass for an European one. But why? Had it been genuinely European, there must have been some Euro markings, and the entire style suggest its Occidental origin. Why gild the lily?
Or, is it, in fact, a truly Oriental sword embellished to look " firangi"?
Total confusion.....

Tim Simmons · 23rd March 2007, 09:51 PM

I know nothing about this type of sword really but I do have a suspicion that there are two hands at work on this blade. The coat of arms in the last picture. To me seems different to the other engraving. If you look very hard it seems to have been done by a different tool? Could it just be a trick of the light you know how imperfect PC communication can be?

Lew · 23rd March 2007, 10:16 PM

Looks like a European blade to me.

Lew

Michael Blalock · 23rd March 2007, 11:24 PM

I bid on this but not high enough. Maybe an eastern blade maker engraved it to mimic a european blade. Thoses are all familiar symbols except the one with lettering that looks like an imitation of the european alphabet.

Jim McDougall · 24th March 2007, 02:58 AM

This is most definitely not a Persian shamshir, and it probably does have some age, to possibly the end of the 19th c. It appears to be a rather crudely furbished version of the Ottoman hilts which came to the attention of European powers during the Egyptian campaigns via the Mamluks. Great Britain and France were intrigued by these sabres, and this parabolic blade seems to be a blade inspired by these military versions, and decorated with an assortment of varying markings from European trade blades. The floral motif, the 'Turks head' and of course the faced crescent moon are all from varying examples. The unusual parallellogram cartouche encloses somewhat familiar symbols, some seeming almost cabalistic, and it would be interesting to know what is intended here.

In the Middle East around the turn of the century, there were industrious producers of examples of these fashionable early European sabres much favored by officers, and probably brought home by the growing numbers of travellers touring these regions. This was of course only one of the many regions producing such pieces, so as an interpretative example of a weapon, it would be difficult to say exactly where it might have been made.

Best regards,
Jim

RSWORD · 24th March 2007, 03:17 AM

I agree with Jim in regards to this sword. Definately not a Persian sword. In my opinion, it is probably an imitation of the French Sabers that were done after their encounters in Egypt, however, French examples are of a much higher quality. Germany was one country that copied many styles and exported all over the world. If I was to take a guess, and it is simply that, I would say a German made imitation of high ranking French officer sword, probably mid 19th century and exported to any number of countries.

23rd March 2007, 05:38 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"Eastern" sword: need opinions Just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...7824&rd=1&rd=1 I am puzzled: the entire sword looks very European to me, with a military blade, kind of a standard " Mameluke saber" used by the French, the British and by who knows who else. However... The blade bears very strange markings: the Turk Head, the coat of arms, the garland, the Passau/Solingen "Man-in-the-Moon" and a cartouche with inscription. Total smorgasboard... All very crudely incised, the incisions intrude on the cutting edge, the cartouche has totally indecipherable text etc. The impression is that the markings were done by a Non-European who wanted this sword to pass for an European one. But why? Had it been genuinely European, there must have been some Euro markings, and the entire style suggest its Occidental origin. Why gild the lily? Or, is it, in fact, a truly Oriental sword embellished to look " firangi"? Total confusion.....

23rd March 2007, 09:51 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I know nothing about this type of sword really but I do have a suspicion that there are two hands at work on this blade. The coat of arms in the last picture. To me seems different to the other engraving. If you look very hard it seems to have been done by a different tool? Could it just be a trick of the light you know how imperfect PC communication can be?

23rd March 2007, 10:16 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Looks like a European blade to me. Lew

23rd March 2007, 11:24 PM	#4
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	I bid on this but not high enough. Maybe an eastern blade maker engraved it to mimic a european blade. Thoses are all familiar symbols except the one with lettering that looks like an imitation of the european alphabet.

24th March 2007, 02:58 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	This is most definitely not a Persian shamshir, and it probably does have some age, to possibly the end of the 19th c. It appears to be a rather crudely furbished version of the Ottoman hilts which came to the attention of European powers during the Egyptian campaigns via the Mamluks. Great Britain and France were intrigued by these sabres, and this parabolic blade seems to be a blade inspired by these military versions, and decorated with an assortment of varying markings from European trade blades. The floral motif, the 'Turks head' and of course the faced crescent moon are all from varying examples. The unusual parallellogram cartouche encloses somewhat familiar symbols, some seeming almost cabalistic, and it would be interesting to know what is intended here. In the Middle East around the turn of the century, there were industrious producers of examples of these fashionable early European sabres much favored by officers, and probably brought home by the growing numbers of travellers touring these regions. This was of course only one of the many regions producing such pieces, so as an interpretative example of a weapon, it would be difficult to say exactly where it might have been made. Best regards, Jim

24th March 2007, 03:17 AM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I agree with Jim in regards to this sword. Definately not a Persian sword. In my opinion, it is probably an imitation of the French Sabers that were done after their encounters in Egypt, however, French examples are of a much higher quality. Germany was one country that copied many styles and exported all over the world. If I was to take a guess, and it is simply that, I would say a German made imitation of high ranking French officer sword, probably mid 19th century and exported to any number of countries.