an insight into museums and collections

[B.I]

This is a hard post to write, as its a little conflicting in content, and more a state of the way things are, as apposed to a search for an answer.
For those patient enough to read it to the end, your stamina is commendable :-)
In England, we have possibly the finest collection of oriental arms. No one museum here can outdo those collections abroad (most especially the Met and Russia) but as a whole, given the short distance between institutions, we can almost imagine the separate collections to be one and its pretty impressive.
We’ve all discussed the problems in the past with displaying arms, with many important collections now almost permanently resigned to a basement or storage facility.
I am a realist, and can understand the reasons for this happening. These major institutions have to pander to the general taste of those coming through the door, and we are by far outnumbered by those after seeing a less martial exhibition. How can an old sword stand up to the interest generated by a tyranasouras head! As most of the visitors are school parties (at least over here, anyway) it’s sometimes the only way to stay open. The royal armouries is a good example of this, as its (relatively) recent move to a new premises had many plans for the collection, but these were not as important as keeping the place open, which would have been a problem had they not attracted the educational curriculum and lost the admission fee. There were just not enough ardent collectors travelling there, now that it had lost the ‘general’ tourist trade due to its new location.
But, this isn’t my problem. As I said, I am a realist and very passionate about my collection and study. This means, all doors will open for me and those with similar taste and passion. Jim and I are of the same mind, and we have discussed this in the past. The museums are run by those with a strong interest, and if you can show your passion is the same (in action as well as writing) there is nothing you cannot see and touch, from the finest arms to all accession records and 100+ year old libraries.
This goes for all museums, as long as you can befriend the right people, which has never really been a problem.
The reserves in all the major institutions are well kept, and fully accessible. In a way, its almost better that they are not fully on display, as it would be harder to get something taken down off the wall, than to pull it out of a storage cabinet.
No, my problem lies elsewhere.
There are collections here that not many people know about and more are being uncovered all the time. Almost every museum has its fair share of donated collections and as we were such a martial race, with a heavy contact with India, many pieces were brought back and collected by those who wouldn’t necessarily have had an interest in this field. So, there has always been more pieces available here, for sale and in museums than in other countries.
Whilst the major museums are fully aware themselves, of the importance of their collections, whether the general public are interested or not. So, the reserves are well kept with a strong conservation team overseeing the pieces in a very strict manor.
This, unfortunately doesn’t go for other museums. Its not that they don’t care, in fact the complete opposite. The problem is they don’t understand and their priorities are different.
I recently visited a museum and spent a full day in the reserves. This was more time than I had planned, but I felt the need to get more involved due to the things I saw. This museum (which I will not name as the curator was outstanding and will do their best to rectify wherever they can) is one of 3 in the area, all of which share teams and a small conservation department. There is not one weapon on show to the public, but there are over 1500 eastern arms in their inventory. There are all wrapped in tissue and boxed, and I was there to see some very specific things that I knew were there. However, the state of some of the swords was criminally bad. There was much surface rust, still live and in many cases recently acquired. The reserves had been recently moved, and the storage facilities were now very good. But, the rust had set in and they dont have time to go through them all. They were being honest, when they said the conservation team just would not have time to get involved, being over-run as they were.
I pulled out a fabulous tulwar, with a 17thC Persian blade with a very neat, inlaid assad allah cartouche, as well as a long, inlaid inscription along the back edge. The pattern on the blade was of the highest quality. However, there was at least 2mm of thick rust on patches of the blade, that had eaten past the surface and would never be removed. This was now heavily pitted and completely ruined. Whilst it couldn’t be saved, it needed to be stopped. I pulled a dozen pieces aside which their team would look at but I only saw a very small part of the collection, and who knows what the state of the rest was in. I cant stress how distressing this was, nor how frustrating both I and the curator was. But, there was nothing that could be done

This post has no point really, as there is nothing that can be done. There are no additional funds. Other museums will not take on the responsibility. They cant sell the pieces without each individual sale being approved by an act of parliament. I don’t have time to go there and help, and even if I wanted to, I’m not sure I would be able to due to the red tape involved.
So, this is just a statement of the way things are. I suppose this is no different to going around someone’s house and seeing their collection poorly preserved. Yes, you can advise them but the pieces are theirs to do with as they please.
I am not moaning at the museums, in fact far from it. They all do a commendable job and are very helpful. The curator of this particular museum had been given this department (?) and it was not in their field of study or interest. These pieces will never be shown, and so they are quite low on the priority list. The law has to stand as it does, to prevent the ‘emptying’ of museums which happily occurred some years back by unscrupulous dealers and back-handers.
So, we can just do our best to get involved and find these collection and hope things change.
michal, i know this will be much for you to take in, given your vocation.

[Rivkin]

I probably lack the experience needed to post here, but since it never stopped me from posting in the past:

Sword collecting community is surprisingly small. Way smaller than a china and porceline community or a ninja-to community, and this most likely correspond to some extent to the general lack of interest among the public.

But I would certainly disagree that the big museums are not doing a good job in displaying arms because of such lack of interests. Almost every museum I've been to is simply horrible when it comes to displaying arms.

First of all - there are virtually no explanations, no history assigned to the weapons. I mean if you go to the museum of science and technology they are going to have one piece of technology and many supplementary materials, that will explain to you how this stuff works, what it's supposed to do, who invented it and so on.

When you go to a standard arms and armor gallery you are lucky to see plagues "caucasian dagger circa 1800-1900" (real example from _the_ museum). How it's going to inspire any interest in masses, I don't know. And this is true for everything - there will be a bunch of european spears signed "bunch of european spears" and a japanese sword with a name japanese sword. Big museums are going to have 10 such swords, small museums are going to have one wakizashi.

But would it be more interesting if they would show an evolution of a japanese sword ? The use of a japanese sword - couple of videos of tameshigiri for example ? The structure of a japanese sword ? Photographs of late samurais ? May be occasionally invite martial artists to chop things in public ?

The same thing goes for all the weapons you are lucky if a plague is going to say that it's wootz and it's a "traditional weapon of hindu people". You are not going to get any feeling of a solid and relatively complete information delivered to you.

Moreover a lot of these expositions are made of gifts. Unfortunately it leads to that instead of trying to have "one of everything", or at least some comprehensive representation of different cultures, they just going yo display 20 high quality shamshirs they've got, not worried in the least that it's completely disproportional to other sections, where you they have almost nothing. Please, sell the things you don't need, but do try to have a comprehensive collection !

I'm not talking about serious inability to accurately describe the weapons (good example is a caucasian dagger - for god's sake, the kindjal can be much more definitely attributed than this).

In short most of exhibit halls to me look like a garbage dump under a glass - throw some stuff here, throw some stuff there, who likes it will be impressed, for the rest we don't give a damn.

[B.I]

hi rivkin,
i hear what your saying, and of course i have to agree. but (of course there is always a 'but') a 10 year old school kid wont know, nor maybe not care what 'wootz' is. i think its hard not to judge a museum from a collector/enthusiasts point of view.
unfortunately, we dont keep museums open. if they charge us $20 a time to go in, and we all went in 3 times a week, then we can expect them to cater for our tastes. if you put on a displey, knowing the highest percentage of viewers will be under 4 foot (sorry for any virtically challenged adults), then you will write the information cards accordingly.
i can only speak for england, but i know that here the museums cant give their opinions. ok, maybe not cant, but are reluctant to. if you write a book on arms, you can happily put your neck on the line, and give your opinion. this opinion can clash against known knowleldge and anyone that reads it can either agree or disagree.
but, if you are part of an institution, you have more responsibility. now only do you have your predecessors, but also the beurocracy, the academics that float in and out etc. so, maybe its better to state the basic fact and let those interested enquire further. science and technology are better documented, and most 'inventions' hold thorough background information.
the purpose of a forum is to discuss and exhange opinions which works really well. i dont think any museum will want this happening in fornt of their displays and so simple is good.
as for the actual display, well i cant say anything. the wallace here is fabulous, as are the armouries. the V&A show a very small selection, but its well displayed. the smaller museums do what they can considering the budget. we dont have the funds here, that the met have and so what they do can only be classed as commendable.
i know the Met is outstanding in their displays, just from the friends that have been.

[Mark]

I think the central problem (aside from the money/manpower/time issue) is that few non-specialty museums have the personnel with the knowledge to create anything other than an aesthetically pleasing arrangement of weapons. It is not a criticism, it is just a fact. For example, I had a very similar experience to BI's when I went to the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History stacks to look at their SE Asian weapons. They did not have the outstanding quality that BI described, be regardless, the weapons were generally in a dire state of neglect and as far as being displayed, there is one dagger, and a case with a half-dozen dual-purpose weapon/tools such as maks and panabas. The curator of the Anthropology collection (which is where the weapons are) is a specialist is in native American culture, and artifacts, and they have no concervators with knowledge of edged weapons.

As Rivkin said, the collecting community is very small, and thus the field of experts could accurately identify, date, etc. edged weapons is also very small. There just aren't enough to go around, and not enough who would be hired by a museum (being "amateurs," you see -- something I always find amusing coming from someone whose "expertise" comes from the same place as that of the "amateur,"i.e., research and experience).

There isn't much point to my post, either. It is just a sad state of affairs. At least some museums put out catalogues of at least part of their off-shelf collections. But many museums have this great stuff that they cannot or will not use, yet they cannot or will not release it and rather let it literally crumble away in obscurity. Such a shame.

[fearn]

Just to present an opposing (and perhaps heartening?) view:

About a 20 years ago, I attended a touring exhibition put on by an armoury from either Switzerland or Austria (the details have slipped my mind--argh!). It was gorgeous, weaponry from the late Medieval/early Renaissance, well-displayed and dazzlingly curated.

Given the fascination with heroic movies (Lord of the Rings, Last Samurai, Matrix, Blade, etc), I think it's pretty goofy that no one is out there trying to set up a touring exhibition.

No one, by the way, includes us. While we obviously don't have the old European weapons to hand, some of the UK museums do, and perhaps it's time that they set up and sent out a touring company to show something like, "the evolution of the western sword."

Simply with our own resources from this board, we could probably mount an exhibition of "the Tao of the Dao (Dha, Dharb, daab, tao, to)" talking about the multifarious (possibly infamous) ways that single-edged blades have been built in Asia, how they spread, bred, and were adapted to local conditions, from 18th century weapons of conquest, to 20th century tourist items and martial arts toys, to farmer's tools throughout SE Asia.

I fully agree with the complaints that everyone's voiced. The question is: can we do something about it?

Fearn

[Conogre]

The topics of museum collections, displays, information and preservation have been discussed here in the past, and hopefully, will continue to be discussed in the future as well.
Likewise personal collections, preservation, display, disposition and motivation are also reoccuring topics that change as the membership changes, as does focus between regions and areas of intrest and the propriety of topics open for discussion, all of which I personally feel are of much more importance than many to most members realize.
Over and over, I've seen people who were pointed to this forum for information, often financially motivated, but none-the-less they came and more often than not were both impressed and thankful, almost invariably glad that they took the time.
While it may seem that this is moving away from the original topic, I think it's exactly the opposite, all leading to the fact that antiquities, both distant and recent, are rapidly disappearing and that above all, public interest has to be maintained in order for any change to be affected.
In the few years that I've been a member here, I've learned more than I ever dreamed possible and had my interest piqued each time it lagged, for whatever reason, and hopefully, this and other forums like it will continue to do so in the future, to the point that it may someday lead to museums and the laws pertaining to same being revised in countries around the world.
Since money is the prime motivator, whenever interest can be revived, be it by historically based motion pictures, educational television (which thankfully, seems to be on the increase), Ebay, antique shops, estate sales and of course, museum exhibits and collections all benefit by the sharing of knowledge and the revival of the urge to see and know about such things, particularly when it can be on a personal level.
I'd love to see the Home Shopping Network, for example, start buying and marketing individual collections on nationwide TV if it would lead to more and more pieces falling into the hands of the public where they could be cherished and valued, rather than stashed away in a catacomb somewhere, out of sight and lost, possibly forever.
All things have a finite existance, with articles often lasting longer than the knowledge and culture that surrounded them, from their creation, use (and abuse, where appropriate) and any interest that leads to discovery and preservation of same is bound to benificial to a certain extent, no matter how small.
If enough people descry the "lost collections" of museums, then possibly someday the laws will be changed and the vaults will be opened, viewed as another source of income, while individual collections continue at whatever level is possible, taking the future ahead for at least one more day at a time.Mike

[Andrew]

I join in Brian's lament. It may very well be the compulsive acquisitiveness of private collectors that ultimately preserve our martial heritage.

There are woefully few museums I would ever consider gifting my personal collection to. Even those institutions are really only attractive because of the individuals currently associated with them. People pass through and on, unfortunately.

[Ian]

This is a depressing topic but at the same time might present some opportunities. I have wondered whether we as a community of collectors might be part of the solution, especially in the area of conservation.

Part of my "job" as a collector is to maintain my collection in good condition, and even restore some items. I look on this as a responsibility to history and a courtesy to the original culture that produced these magnificent works of style and function. Trial and error are two ways of learning, but I dare say that with a few weeks of "tutoring" by a professional conservator expert in edged weapons, many of us could be pretty darn proficient in this area, at least at the simple stuff. Passionate interest makes for busy hands and careful work.

What is to stop us from being volunteer conservators for some of these institutions? Museums are not likely to let anyone off the street go to work on their collections, but again if we were to undertake a little training, perhaps with a "certificate" at the end, then that might open doors to allow us to be helpful.

Now I did use the word "volunteer." Museums are not likely to pay anyone to do things that are not a priority for them. But free labor is hard to refuse, and I can't imagine the materials necessary to do a lot of this work are going to be very costly -- I'm not talking about repairing gold koftgari, replacing precious stones, or doing delicate restorations. Removing rust, polishing and oiling blades, maintaining leather, etc. are simple and important contributions that we could make.

I'm looking forward to an interesting retirement in about 10 years. This is something I have thought about doing, but don't really know where to start. Perhaps others are already involved and can offer suggestions.

Ian.

[Battara]

Interesting idea, Ian. I share your sentiments, although for doing restorations pay would be nice (I like money ). Besides, in the past museums sometimes came to collectors for loaning materials for exibit and still do.

[Mark]

I got a cool reaction when I offered to do some volunteer conservation on the SE Asian collection at the Smithsonian. Then again, I had essentially just walked off of the street at that point. Hopefully I can cultivate the relationship to the point where that could happen.

[Rick]

Occasional rays of sunlight in the collective gloom .

http://www.oakeshott.org/

[B.I]

i agree with andrew, and there is nowhere i would trust with my collection. again, this wasnt a moan about institutions, but a summary of the way things are at the moment.
there is always hope that things will change, and the 'ray of sunshine' rick offered proves that.
its all about generating an interest that goes past the already enthusiastic enthusiast. with our interest comes history and its in this history that the answers may lie in getting the general public on board. the cost of organising new exhibitions are ridiculously high, when you consider the hassle involved in museum loans etc. but, when one happens that concerns arms, you realise the decision to do this must be based on an interest that exists.
the oakshot institute is a great example of how things should be.
unfortunatley, ewan was an institution in himself and thus uncommon but we can all hope that we will all wield such prowess in the academic world one day :-)
also, his passion for his studies was well known, and so it would be hard to stifle his name now. his collection was almost secondary to the legacy he left behind.
i am glad everyone feels the same way. i said it was a hard post to write, for i knew i was in fear of giving ammunition to fire at institutions, which i really wanted to avoid. i should have had more faith :-)

[B.I]

ive attached an image of one of the pieces in the collection. this wasnt one i had pulled aside for the conservation team, as by then i thought i was pushing my luck. the environment is controlled now, and so any rust that has eaten in has done its damage and its spread will be slower.
i wont post any other pictures, and have cropped this to just show the gory details. with the omittence of the museums name, i am happy i am not breaking confidence by posting this.
the piece is an early pata. probably dates from the early 17thC (possibly slightly earlier), although its decoration (but not so much the form) goes into the late 16thC. always assumed as tanjore (or mysore in other cases) as most dont look further than these two districts. the style of decoration is more remeniscent of vellor, and in some ways madurai (although the chisselwork was finer) and the temples of both areas reflect this decoration.
this piece is completly covered in silver (blackened with tarnish) and the live rust has eaten below the silver and is pushing it out. the silver was flaking off in my hands as i held it and it was obvious it was a recent thing.
shocking picture, especially when you know it this wasnt the worst.

[Jens Nordlunde]

It is a sad subject Brian brings up, sad, be course many of the museums don’t have the money/interest/knowledge, needed for the care of weapons and other artefacts, either bought over the years, or gifts the museum or the country have received.

The museums are not allowed/will not sell some of the weapons from their reserves, saying they are there for further research, and while waiting for the research many of the weapons rust – often badly, witch when/if the research is ever done it will be made difficult, if not impossible, according to how heavy the rust on the weapon is.

I really don’t see a solution on this problem, until the politicians start to wake. Until then, and it may be a while, Ian’s suggestion can be tried. I doubt that many collectors, even with extra education, will be allowed into the museums to help, be course, as Brian says, you have to know the curators well to be allowed to see their reserves – not to speak about cleaning the weapons – you might spoil the rust. When this said, I must also say, that I know many museums are very unhappy with the situation, and do what they can to change it, plus that the museums which have money do all they can to keep their reserves intact.

Saddening to see the pictures - did you say they had 1500 oriental weapons in all?

[wolviex]

Gentlemen!

As a museum worker and called out by Brian, I feel compelled to write few words from museum point of view.

First, I’m happy that you are all so well informed about museums situation. Everything what you have written is true and actually I could just stop right here. I do not have any brand new idea how to change things. There are people whose job is thinking how to manage museums, they are creating theories, plans etc., most of them are with great museum experience. But unfortunately none of them could pass the problems called money. Because this is the root of the many museums problems nowadays.

You’ve quoted here many of the problems, with good understanding of them. Now I’ll try to explain some of them but basing on my museum’s situation. By the way, I’m totally surprised with the Brian’s description of how bad in British museum things are, because I always imagined that in Great Britain this institutions are managed perfectly, without such problems as a lack of money, lack of experts or properly back-up facilities. Now I know this was only my imagination and a dream about ideal place, while problems are the same here and there, maybe only the range is different.

My museum, as the biggest in Poland, it is the place where all the possible problems appearing and they’re very visible. Well, one problem is not existent. My museum as a National can’t be disband. However, it must have survived anyway in very hard times, when government finances were low (today is a little better). Biggest problems with that are in small towns or other cities where museums are under municipal administration. If city is small and poor, such museums are on the edge of insolvency.

First of all, in my opinion, Museum is created to preserve objects of cultural, social, art etc. meaning. Preserve is equal to do everything what is possible to keep them in good state of preservation, and there is no way to bring the object to ruin. That’s why I’m terrified with Brian’s lament. If there are 1500 objects of historical meaning, there is no way but to find money (sponsors, donations, volunteers) to make conservation. There is no explanation like “out of priority”. If that museum doesn’t want to keep this objects there is a legal way with government help, to take them to other, more interested in, museum – if not as a gift then as a deposit (e. g. on long term). On the other way, such treatment is a complete negation of museum existence and mission.

And what can I say, working in a “Military” department, which is “Military” only by name. We’ve got here armours, swords, sabres, knives, military uniforms, military badges and distinctions, fire-arms, objects from Poland, Europe, Orient, Africa, but also: civilian uniforms, civilian badges and distinctions, varia like military grave crosses (sic!), spoons and forks after Generals, replicas and other weird things! I CAN’T tell they’re out of my interests and let them to crumble! If they’re under my custody, I’m responsible for every nail which is out there.

Of course keeping them in good state wouldn’t be possible if not conservation workrooms. and here we’ve got another problem. My museum is real big place. You’ve got there not only military objects but also paintings, graphics, photographs, fabrics, decorated art (porcelain, glass, and many other objects of daily use!), furniture…, every one of them needs a conservation help. The queue is long and some objects are waiting even few years, but those on the edge of crumble, or those needed for exhibition purposes, are priority. Such conservation back-up is very, very expensive, but this is most important. Of course, once preserved object need a special treatment to keep him in good state of preservation for a long time! If not, all the work is useless and without end. This needs special magazines and exhibitions conditions, which are expensive as well, without money – there is dead end. Sometimes you need to search sponsors (what is visible in my museum from time to time). I admit that small museums are without any chances to create such back-up what is equal to the bad state of some of the objects. That’s why government help, donations and foundations are needed. Just imagine: if I have some rifle to preserve I have to go to the conservation workshop of: metal, wood and sometimes textile or decorative art (with stones and so on). How many specialists do you need for one, beautiful rifle to make it shining with full light again!

Polish museums were creating mostly of donations. Rivkin, I know you would like to see very monographic museums with only complete collections, but this is almost impossible. Of course, there are always plans to fill collections, and this is the ideal situation for every museum. That’s why there are still some purchasing on auctions or from individual sellers. To make a complete collection of some sort of historical objects nowadays, is possible only for museums that are focus only on one sort of objects, like Army Museum in Warsaw. They can systematically gather weapons of some sort, trying to close one collection after the other, of course assuming possibility: like money and appearing concrete objects on auctions and in other places (what is impossible with some sort of them!). My museum, with 20 different departments, when every single one needs something completely different, with limited funds, can only count on gifts and accidental chances!

I agree with Rivkin that descriptions are sometimes (lets say it delicate) not efficient. In most of the Polish museums you’ll find completely wrong and short explanations, especially in smaller ones, but those very big aren’t better anyway. Problems are lack of books, which could help to identify objects properly, lack of qualified personnel, and impossibility of knowing everything. For example in my military department are working three people including me. We’ve got ca. 10 000-12 000 objects from the whole world, from ancient times, through medieval, up to the 20th century. Can you posses such knowledge, and describe everything properly with precise date, manufacture and place, especially when most of the objects are completely out of your known world? You can always ask collectors and other scholars for help, but I can assure you, you cannot find them inerrable, and on the other hand, you will not find in my city any expert on kindjals, krises or many other types of weapons! Then you are alone (that’s why this forum seems to be great place ). I’ve done everything what was possible to make descriptions on my Arms and Armour exhibition as exact, as it was only possible. So Rivkin, would you be satisfied with descriptions like this, e.g:
----------------------------------------
ARM GUARDS
Poland, “Lviv manufacture”, 2nd half of the 17th century

Iron plate, silver plate, silk, fake rubies, inlaid with gold, gilded, niello, engraved, riveted rings

On the edge of guard arms, encrusted with gold excerption from the Old Testament. On the right arm guard: Therefore now let your hands be strengthened, and be ye valiant (II Samuel, chapter 2, 7); on the left one: Thy right hand, o Lord, is become glorious in power (Exodus, chapter 15, 6);

or:

INFANTRY OFFICER'S DRESS SMALL-SWORD
WITH SHEATH
Saxony, early 18th century

Steel, brass, wood, leather, etched, gilded, chased, engraved

Blade is etched and gilded on either side with the Polish-Saxon coat-of-arms, a monogram “AR” (Augustus Rex) and an inscription: RECTE FACIENDO / NEMINEM TIMEAS / TANDEM BONA / CAUSA TRIUMPHAT / GOT MIT UNS / NEC TIMERE / NEC TIMENDE
Gift of Janina Kornecka, 1947
----------------------------------------
About Rivkin’s idea of selling objects: it is not nonsensically. There were in Polish museums such exchanges objects for objects, some of the were real sensible, and some of them were just criminal, while one of the biggest museum with government back-up took (stole) from the other places best things. Except this infamous example, this is quite sensible and can solve many problems, but then you have to pass many law problems as well. Not everybody wants to do it, knowing how many troubles it will generate. The good way is long-term deposit.

The next problem is qualification of science workers that are obliged to work with objects, make exhibitions and catalogues, and render objects accessible for other scholars. Problem is not only they are not always experts in what are they doing but also that they have no time to do it. My duty is (except those above): to answer on inquires, make hires of objects to other museums (qualification and selection of objects, description, state of preservation, assessment, packing), choice objects for conservation, guiding groups of adults and childrem, keeping department in life (bureaucracy, supply…)… then you’ve to find time to write catalogue or make an interesting exhibition. When we will add bureaucracy, which is killing – you know that life in museum is not easy! You can say: let’s hire volunteers. Sometimes of course, we are accepting students or apprentices, they’re helpful sometimes, but it will not solve problems if they are only for a moment (2weeks or 1 month), and because of that intended to only additional work. By the way, you can’t just come to museum and say: I would like to repair some of your objects. Will you let to enter to your collection unknown man from the street? Without papers, and let’s be sincere, without acquaintance, your chances are low.

Well, I think I didn’t say anything new, but this is reality of museum today in my eyes.

regards
Michal

[Jens Nordlunde]

Michael,

Reading you mail makes me even more sad than reading Brian’s, as Brian saw the result, but you work/fight the problem every day, knowing the fight will be lost, if something drastic is not done. We, the collectors, can only be glad that someone will take up the fight, however difficult it is. I fear the problem is the same all over the World, in some places a bit better than in others, and a disaster in many places.

The economical problem is huge, and I doubt very much, that the solution will come from the governments in the different countries. I can only see one way, a combination of (big) sponsors, (small sponsors) memberships, museum shops and advertising the museum. I Denmark the Toejhumuseum makes fights between the Black and the White knight, on horse and on food, and this seems to attract a lot of people – especially the young ones, but then the parents have to go too, and they make sure the also visit the museum shop and the cafeteria. But I guess you know all this already – I wish I could help.

Jens

[B.I]

it seems i've hit a real nerve, and its good we all share the same views.
thank you michal for your insight, and none of us would dream this could ever happen in your museum :-)
jens and i discussed this some time ago, when the V&A put their weapons away. but, their reasons were valid and the main criteria of every museum is to keep the doors open, and in doing so they have to cater for the popular demands.
i hope no-one feels that all english museums are like this. far from it. the main institutions are passionate about their conservation and the pieces, even in storage, are well looked after.
however, every town has a museum of sorts, and every city has a number of them. with smaller cities, the museums tend to share teams. most will not have an arms or military department. and so, any arms or militaria will be thrown under the jurisdiction of another department. the head of this department/curator will be just as keen to look after what they have, but as its not their field of knowledge/possibility of being on display/funds or team to look after them they eventually fall into disrepair.
each piece i pulled out i showed to the curator, who promised it would be looked into, which i believe. but, the impression i got was the rest would have a long wait.
also, another point that was made. i'm sure the museum will gladly give the collection to another museum, but who is going to take it? the major institutions have enough trouble looking after their own. smaller museums dont have the time/space or experience to house these pieces so they are stuck with them.
also, majore pieces were sold off years ago, that i'm sure now woul dbe looked after and displayed. i know of a number of collections that dont exist anymore, that had items that were of national importance. at the time, however, no one was interested.
also, there is no way someone can walk off the street and offer to conserve them. i know from my own experience, there are enough collectors who claim to know what they are doing and destroy weapons in a shoddy attempt to restore them. (please know, i'm not hinting at forum collectors, but the novice at arms fairs). so, maybe less damage would occur in leaving them as they are in the hope that someone in-house can be persuaded to show an interest.

a good example, but will have to be a little vague. i know a museum with a large collection of arms. in the department i am interested in , there is no head, but it is overseen by other departments who, although very competent, dont have a real interest in the pieces in this part of the collection. there is a guy in administration, that has a personal passion for part of history, that runs alongside my own interests. and so, he spends all his spare time researching the arms collection, which includes updating the inventory, helping with the conservation and putting up with me now and then :-)

so, we can only hope to inspire, conspire and collude with all others with the same interest and hope things change for the better.

[B.I]

as jens rightly says, trying to 'provoke' and interest back may be the only way. again, the tournament thing works, but only in a museum that specialises in the 'martial' aspect of history. the main reason the royal armouries left london, is to regain space and set up a proper museum. they charged admission at first, and found the site they had chosen was not easily accessable to anyone, except locals. it was too far a trip for tourists coming to london. also, the high prices in admission were needed to recover funds and expenses, which just meant fewer people turned up. now, they have abolished the entrance fees and are funded by the government (i think thats how it works). they now offer a service, in the education of the surrounding schools and its a great museum to visit, with much to do and to attract kids and interest (knights fighting etc).
but, a museum that specialises in dinosaurs (for eg) that has a large store of donated weapons collections would be less inclined unfortunately. also, in london (and other cities) there is no space at all.
i fear the answer is not in us (our interests are already confirmed), but in the general public who need to be inticed.
in the V&A, versace attracts more interest than tipu or ranjit singh.

[Rivkin]

Dear Michal,

I'm sorry if my posts sounded like too much like an accusation - I understand the situation with funds, manpower etc.
I also understand that the fact that history departments tend to teach numismatics and ceramics but not "weapon's archeology" (judging by the number of books published in Poland things can be different there ?) together with all kind of probabilities (like a specialist in art trying to manage arms and armor department) contributes to the disasterous situation.

I also understand that collectors make mistakes constantly. In fact I strongly belive that for a lot of weapons more or less precise attribution is impossible. Concerning kindjals - I think there are may be two experts in the whole world who seriously studied them.

With all these, I probably should try to reiterate my original ideas:

1. Most of the arms and armor exhibitions use the "art museum" model - existing collection is arranged according to time periods, with no additional materials (photographs, explanations, models, maps etc.) displayed.

I think way more effective would be the "science and industry museum" model - limited number of items, accompinied by massive demonstrations and explanations.

2. I truly believe that items in small museums are nearly doomed - it's not only weapons, same things happens with painting etc. - extremely harsh storage requirements, multiplied by the cost of restoration, multiplied by the poverty of local museums leads to problems.

3. I have to be honest - I don't believe in that museums follow the public's taste, and above all are trying to maximize admission. Not so recently I've been to Chicago Art Institute. It had an exhibit of "installations" - on one wall it was basically a bunch of _empty_ frames, on another wall - a few photographs of water in some sort of pond I guess, taken 1s apart.

Now I know I come from the family of "realists"-artists, who believe that "modern art" is insanity, so I'm not the most objective person to talk about the issue, but empty frames caused me to collapse on the floor from laughter.

Same feelings are shared by the majority of "simple masses" attending these exhibits, but nevertheless the fashion trend of "post-modern art" does not die out, because the museum and art establishment is hellbent on supporting it.

May be it's a false impression (I'm really not the one to know), but arms and armor usually are not considered "cool" by the mainstream museum community.

4. Concerning collectors helping with the cnservation of museum's collections - I don't think it's really a workable solution:
a. There are very few collectors qualified to polish something (because there are very few collectors period).
b. What happens is a collector makes a mistake ? Should he be held responsible for the damage ? What are the standards imposed on "conservation" - do we "clean" the blades or we just remove the active rust ? Do we try to "conserve" japanese weapons (you know what the japanese community will think about this idea), or SEA mafia will stick to keris/dha, some other people to shamshirs etc. ? Very soon we arrive to the idea that there is one guy (or girl) who is qualified to work with the weapons of one particular class.

5. What I believe can be greatly benefitial is futhering (in most cases - creating) a cooperation in between of us as _united_ collectors-individuals and at least most important museums. First goal I would say is cataloging - photographing and describing collections in full, so we clearly know - what we have, in what condition. Then the questions - how it can be helped, and how it can be used (displayed) can be addressed.

Again I would point to the japanese collector community - not only it sponsors numerous exhibits and catalogues, it cooperates with major collections and museums when it comes to exhibition/preservation. They have similar problems, but in general they a little bit more sucsessful.

I understand there is going to be a lot of resistance, but if we are to try to do as individuals we are going to meet a very cold reception in most places.

Hope this writing makes some sence.

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Michael, Reading you mail makes me even more sad than reading Brian’s

Ok. I think we are tragedize too much. There are many pros of museums any way. Let's see:

Many of the great scholars were working in Museums. Thanks to them we know what we know.

Museums are still the places were you can get experience, you can learn a lot, and last but not least - they're still stimulating centers for science (e.g. historical, archeological etc.)

All in all I think that collections are safe in Museums. For example: my museum was founded in 19th century. It was at the time when Poland didn't politically exist, then it get through 1st WW, 2nd WW and communists regime. Of course there are museums that lost many of the collections during these hard days, but my preserved in very well condition. We could secure evacuation for the objects, and those which stayed were treaten with respects even by invaders. Some of them were stolen, but we still are recovering them from whole world with success. From my military department there were nothing lost! Ironicaly, there were few objects stolen during peaceful times.

Another thing is that collections are safe here in wholeness and hardly ever they are sentenced to dispersion, while I knew and heard about many collectors, whoes work of life after their death was sold out by family on every world's direction. While biggest collections given for museums are treaten with respect and sometimes there are called after the collector's name.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Michael,

You may be right that things seldom are stolen from museums – although there are examples, also recently ones. Some suggestions have been brought forward, as how to try to help, and none of them seem to be optimal. You sit in the middle of the situation, what would you suggest? How do you see the future, do you think the museums will get better possibilities for conservation, better exhibitions?

To be quit honest – I don’t, and I don’t want to tell you why, as I would have to get into politics, and would get into troubles with the moderators, but I think you get the idea.

Jens

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

How do you see the future, do you think the museums will get better possibilities for conservation, better exhibitions?

I'm not optimistic either. I think that Museums are institutions of higher purposes, and it should be funded by government. Of course it's day-dream while not every museum is under government protection, but I can talk only about the biggest, National ones. Museums in Poland, judging from what I can see everyday, won't earn money on tourists. There is not so many of them. And you can't force people to visit museum. Some of them (most of them?) just aren't interestet. Museum is not a cinema where you're going just to relax and fun, it's cultural institution, and because of that for many people it is equal to boring institution! You'll have to change mentality of people to change the rest. There are some ways to increase the income from tourists, but it will be always not enough to keep the institution in life without additional money.
Here in my Museum, when we have to preserve some important object, but project is very expensive, we are depending on sponsors and it works. There are also some other, not museum way of earning money - hiring the local. So we've got fairs and conferences in museal rooms. Sometimes it is grotesque when the exhibition is removed (!!!) for e. g. two days, and then we are installing exhibition again. But there are real big money from such events.
But for real these are very complex problems. I'm not museum theorist but just historic who is trying to get some knowledge about weapons gathered in my Museum, so maybe I'm not the best person for discuss

[Rick]

This may sound silly but this discussion of museums and preserving the past brings to mind the great science fiction novel by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle , The Mote In God's Eye .

The book is about an alien race that cannot control its population increase and their society goes through regular cycles of crashes back to the stone age . In that book Museums were used as the keys to redevelopment of technology .

just an OT observation ...

[Battara]

Rick, I read part of that book and could not get into it (though I thought the idea of a Scottish space fleet interesting).

There is one exception to this forboding. Here in Louisville, KY, US we have things like the Frazier Arms Museum. Although attendance is lower than what they would have liked, it displays arms and adds martial and historical re-enactments to the show. Most of the arms displayed come from the basement of the Royal Armouries in Great Britain. Although mostly European and American in focus, there is a smatering of ethnographic stuff. Some of us on this forum have visited and enjoyed.

On a side note, I was originally asked to be a consultant for the museum until the original group working on the internet portion fell apart. Now I'm just another customer.

[BluErf]

I understand how collectors feel when they see fantastic specimens that they could hardly get in the market crumble and decay with neglect in a Museum. But lets face it, Museums are not passionate collectors who will take care of their collection with all the loving care they can spare. If the weapons are like our children, Museums are like orphanages. It may not be the best place, but at least some decent care is dished out by the Museums.

Moreover, collectors lose interest, get lazy and forget. A well-kept collection could as easily fall into a decrepit state when the collector falters in his passion. More often than not, collectors pass on and you know what their children do to the collection that they never cared about...

All things are impermanent; all things that are made will eventually be unmade. It is the natural way of things. Clinging on otherwise is probably not going to change much, but it would certainly add more worry lines and white hairs to ourselves. We do what we can and let the rest take its natural course.

[wolviex]

Because I was writing about responsibility of Museums for their objects, and necessity to find funds for preserving their collection as a fundamental, I think it won't be unsensibly to quote the ethic rules which are obligatory in Museums united by ICOM (The Internatonal Council of Museums). Here I decided to quote only those which seemed to me basic in the light of my recent words: preserve, conserve, trained staff etc. as the most important. If someone is interested more in the subject please go to the site of ICOM http://icom.museum/, where you can find many interesting links, just as this code of ethics :

From Statute of ICOM:

Article 2 - Definitions
1. A museum is a non-profit making, permanent institution in the service of society and of its development, and open to the public, which acquires, conserves, researches, communicates and exhibits, for purposes of study, education and enjoyment, material evidence of people and their environment.

ICOM Code of Ethics for Museums

1. Museums preserve, interpret and promote the natural and cultural inheritance of humanity
Principle: Museums are responsible for the tangible and intangible natural and cultural heritage. Governing bodies and those concerned with the strategic direction and oversight of museums have a primary responsibility to protect and promote this heritage as well as the human, physical and financial resources made available for that purpose.
PERSONNEL
1.11 Employment Policy
The governing body should ensure that all action concerning personnel is taken in accordance with the policies of the museum as well as the proper and legal procedures.
1.14 Competence of Museum Personnel
The employment of qualified personnel with the expertise required to meet all responsibilities is necessary
1.15 Training of Personnel
Adequate opportunities for the continuing education and professional development of all museum personnel should be arranged to maintain an effective workforce.
1.17 Museum Personnel and Volunteers
The governing body should have a written policy on volunteer work which promotes a positive relationship between volunteers and members of the museum profession.
1.18 Volunteers and Ethics
The governing body should ensure that volunteers, when conducting museum and personal activities, are fully conversant with the ICOM Code of Ethics and other applicable codes and laws.

2. Museums that maintain collections hold them in trust for the benefit of society and its development.
Principle: Museums have the duty to acquire, preserve and promote their collections as a contribution to safeguarding the natural, cultural and scientific heritage. Their collections are a significant public inheritance, have a special position in law and are protected by international legislation. Inherent in this public trust is the notion of stewardship that includes rightful ownership, permanence, documentation, accessibility and responsible disposal.
ARE OF COLLECTIONS
2.18 Collection Continuity
The museum should establish and apply policies to ensure that their collections (both permanent and temporary) and associated information, properly recorded, are available for current usage and will be passed on to future generations in as good and safe a condition as practicable, having regard to current knowledge and resources.
2.19 Delegation of Collection Responsibility
Professional responsibilities involving the care of the collections should be assigned to persons with the appropriate knowledge and skill or who are adequately supervised
2.20 Documentation of Collections
Museum collections should be documented according to accepted professional standards. This documentation should include a full identification and description of each item, its associations, provenance, condition, treatment and present location. Such data should be kept in a secure environment and be supported with retrieval systems providing access to the information by the museum personnel and other legitimate users.
2.21 Protection Against Disasters
Careful attention should be given to the development of policies to protect the collections during armed conflict and other man-made and natural disasters2.24 Collection Conservation and Restoration
The museum should carefully monitor the condition of collections to determine when an object or specimen may require conservation-restoration work and the services of a qualified conservator-restorer. The principle goal should be the stabilisation of the object or specimen. All conservation procedures should be documented and as reversible as possible, and all alterations should be clearly identifiable from the original object or specimen.
2.26 Personal Use of Museum Collections
Museum personnel, the governing body, their families, close associates, or others should not be permitted to expropriate items from the museum collections, even temporarily, for any personal use.

FUNDS:
I cheked out what about funds in my museum. Just as I said before, there is no way to exist Museum without government refinance. For example (information given to the public) income of the museum from itself activity is 300,000 pln, dotation: 1,900,000 pln (ca. 6,3 times more, while only salaries for workers needs ca. 1,000,000 PLN or even more!). So without government help/duty Museum would be ruined, while it can't survive alone.

Originally Posted by BluErf

But lets face it, Museums are not passionate collectors who will take care of their collection with all the loving care they can spare. If the weapons are like our children, Museums are like orphanages. It may not be the best place, but at least some decent care is dished out by the Museums.

Dear BluErf, in the light of ICOM statute and passion of so many people to survive in hard museum conditions, your words seems to be a little harmful. In the light of all of this, Museums should be the ONLY place to keep objects (of course it is not so in reality). Museums definitely are not "orphanages". I feel the same passion as you, and I love "my" objects with the same love as you, and I'm not the only one. Among the collectors and museum workers you will find the same passion but ignorance as well, so I don't think that discussion: what is better - Museum or collector's house, is really necessary!.

All the best
Michal

[ariel]

I agree with Michal.
Museums and private collectors fulfill the same role and have certain advantages and disadvantages.
1. Private collectors are (ideally) dedicated amateurs with passion for deep research into a specific area.
Disadvantages: most are not wealthy and cannot acquire the best examples; most are working people and have only limited time on their hands; most do not have professional background and cannot assure proper storage; most cannot offer professional protection (anti theft and anti-damage by the elements); most cannot publish and disseminate their knowledge; most do not assure perpetuity of the collection (my son will sell or give away my swords 15 minutes after I am dead), most do not belong to an established network of mutual loans, visits, access etc
2. Museums, on the other hand, even the "below the average" of them, have better resources, institutional memory and can hire professional people as curators of a specific field (Impressionists, Mayan sculpture, political cartoons of Central Africa, and - yes! - South Indian swords). I would completely disagree with the notion that a dedicated private collector is in any way superior to the dedicated, trained, museum-appointed curator of a particular field.
I also am willing to bet that far, far more valuable swords were destroyed by irresponsible, lazy,well meaning but ignorant or just too poor collectors than by all the small-time museums in the world. We just do not know about them and can see only pitiful pics of the damaged museum objects. It's a "man bites dog" story all over again.

The bottom line, both models of historical preservation and research are , ideally, valuable and complementing each other. Let's not forget that both were in existence for hundreds of years . Where would Rawson, Elgood, Stone, Blair, Tarassuk, Astvatsaturyan, van Zonneveld and all the other authors of the books on which we are relying in our amateurish hobbies get their materials if not for the museums?

[B.I]

the intention of the original post was always in favour of museums as a whole, and i found it hard to write in fear that it may become ammunition against the institutions.
i know many of the museums here, and the curators are as passionate as any collector i have met. the museum in question was the same, but their problem was time. they dont have funds to taken on new staff, and so the whole museum is run by a small core of curators who do a tremendous job, given that they only have 24 hours in a day.
how many private collections have you seen piled on top of each other, or stored badly. when you visit a friend, when are you asked to sign documents and wear gloves before picking up a weapon.
the original statement was an unfortunate circumstance that cant be helped. we have a large 'hoard' of weapons, borne from many donations over many years. these cant be disposed of, and so all they can do is their best to keep them in storage, along with everything else.
i cannot begin to stress how much money and care was put into building the reserve storage of the major museums, and i would hate for anyone to think these pieces are kept in old boxes under a table.
the museum in question had all these pieces in another place for some time, until a proper place could be found for them. now they are in a controlled environment, but it will take a while before they have time to open all the boxes and attemopt to converve the pieces, beofre putting them away again.
with the amount of pieces they have, it would be a permanent job for a team, and once they finish, i'm sure they would have to start again.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by wolviex

Dear BluErf, in the light of ICOM statute and passion of so many people to survive in hard museum conditions, your words seems to be a little harmful. In the light of all of this, Museums should be the ONLY place to keep objects (of course it is not so in reality). Museums definitely are not "orphanages". I feel the same passion as you, and I love "my" objects with the same love as you, and I'm not the only one. Among the collectors and museum workers you will find the same passion but ignorance as well, so I don't think that discussion: what is better - Museum or collector's house, is really necessary!.

I apologise for unwittingly hurting curatorial staff who are passionate about what they are doing. A very sorry.

Though my post may seem anti-Musuem, it is actually not. I was trying to put forth a balanced view. I agree pieces fall apart while in Museum collections and in private collections. As Ariel points out, both paths have advantages and disadvantages. We might also say if not for the private collectors, where would the Museums get their pieces (or donated collections).

The last para from my previous post -

" All things are impermanent; all things that are made will eventually be unmade. It is the natural way of things. Clinging on otherwise is probably not going to change much, but it would certainly add more worry lines and white hairs to ourselves. We do what we can and let the rest take its natural course. "

- is actually meant for both private collectors and curatorial staff. The gist of the message is "do our (collectors and curatorial staff) best with what we have and let it be", and of course be happier. That's the most important part.

Hope this clarifies.

[tom hyle]

Sorry, Wolviex; I think the orphanage comparison was very accurate. Museum curators may (I say "may"; it is certainly not required) be passionate, concerning usually only a certain specialized area, and not usually every thing under their care. Moreover, the importance of that passion is considerably diminished, as, acting within a social institution, they are not allowed to act upon that passion, but must act according to rules and plans laid down by the group. This takeover of human activity from politics to production to interpersonal relations by the concepts and institutions of specialization/professionalism is not a minor issue, nor is there a single area of our lives to which it is not relevant. If you have a doctor in your family and one not, otherwise equal, who do you go to? Right. Why? Because he cares; the other is merely making a rules-bound social/economic transaction. Yes, people can care about their jobs and the affects on others/the world, but they don't HAVE to, and many don't. In a good orphanage the kids always get all their shots and plenty to eat, which is more than they'd get in many poor families, but (even assuming all orphanages being good ones) is that a substitute for love and family? Most would not say so. So the care and preservation of musea staff with, as has been pointed out, more to take care of than they properly can and impersonal rules about how to do it, is not the same as that of a loving individual. Heck, the ideal situation for a sword, where it most fulfills its spirituality and functionality, where it most interacts as it was meant to, and the only place where truly proper care is available, is to be owned by a person whose only sword it is, and who loves, respects, and depends upon it.......
Also, as usual when promoting control by social institutions, the wealth and power that can be brought to bear that so exceeds that of the individual is the promoted value, but there is inevitably (INEVITABLY) a loss of the personal, the passionate, and indeed, the real. It is only people who live with swords, for instance, as swords, who can really know them. In a museum you cannot do this. Try sharpening up one of the swords to do some test cuts (let alone because it wants to be sharp and ready to kill); how would your boss like that? Now, maybe if you could submit a paper, before and after, with all the proper tribal seals and such, and measure and quantify everything until you strip it of all spirit and feel, then maybe you'd be allowed.........as for private owners being less able to care for swords A/ that's known as life; some would rather live life in the world than in the various prisons of safety offered by society.....and B/ private owners are MORE able to properly care for swords, because we are able to treat them as swords, something musea and academic collections very rarely do, and indeed, try to prevent.
Don't take it like a personal insult; to say many professionals don't care and that the forces of professionalism and social institutionality can be counter to passionate stewardship are just facts of the world. These facts do nothing to discredit the good workers, though I can see where they might dishearten one somewhat. Social institutions, for good or ill, or whatever combination, are what we're stuck with, and will be increasingly stuck with: That much is clear. So I do not argue for stripping and destroying social institutions, but they have a condemnable way of making their way the only way, and of shutting out the individual, and I don't care to stand by and watch that justified.
And I will never get over those humans in England throwing the rennaissance swords into the melter because they'd studied them enough and had no room for them. That was not love.....I bet they'd say they hated doing it. I bet they'd say they hated HAVING to do it, but we don't have to do anything but die, and it's when we let Master/social institutions tell us how to live we somehow forget that.