Fine Silver Thai/Burmese 'Hanger' Chatelaine or for a knife?

Atlantia · 10th July 2010, 08:04 PM

Its so beautiful, I thought I'd take a chance.
It's sort of like a chatelaine but.......
Could it be for a more 'sinister' purpose?
Extremely fine quality, high grade silver, high relief repouse figure of Rama with his bow.
(If its just for keys or something mundane, it'll be for the block!)

Mark · 10th July 2010, 09:28 PM

Never seen anything like it. It is quite beautiful, though.

Atlantia · 10th July 2010, 11:29 PM

Thanks Mark. The figure of Rama is superb, amazingly detailed and not too rubbed over the years.
Any thoughts on Origin or use?

Battara · 11th July 2010, 03:11 AM

Nice deep repousse work. Always in awe of this type of work.

Atlantia · 11th July 2010, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Nice deep repousse work. Always in awe of this type of work.

There really is nothing quite like a bit of Nice deep repousse work!

Nathaniel · 11th July 2010, 07:45 PM

Interesting piece...I love the repousse silver work as well. I would love to add a repoussed silver dha to the collection sometime with figures such as this...it was fantastic seeing Mark's at the Seminar this spring!

What is puzzling to me is why most of these heavily silver repousse swords appear to be exclusive to Burma? Would you say Burman to be specific Mark?

(Along with the Koftgari would be burman? Versus Kachin/ Shan. I'm sure the Koftgari was picked up from neighboring India.)

I've seen beautiful repoussed bowls from northern Thailand and Laos.

http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/s..._thailand.html

Atlantia · 11th July 2010, 08:04 PM

Thanks for the input Nathaniel.

Heres a better pic of this piece

Nathaniel · 11th July 2010, 08:05 PM

I think it's a sword loop belt hanger

..well...maybe not....just a little stretch of the imagination

Nathaniel · 11th July 2010, 08:06 PM

Alantia, much better picture! Gives you a better 3D perspective

Atlantia · 11th July 2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

I think it's a sword loop belt hanger

..well...maybe not....just a little stretch of the imagination

I wish, but it would support a small knife or something......
Any ideas?
Gene

Atlantia · 11th July 2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Alantia, much better picture! Gives you a better 3D perspective

I would guess that the silver content is also extremely high. And thank you

Andrew · 11th July 2010, 08:35 PM

Love it!

No idea, however, what its intended use is.

It could, indeed, be intended to hang a sword or knife from (although the chain loop looks small). Or, perhaps something more mundane like a candle, votive, incense, flowers, a fan, etc.

Atlantia · 11th July 2010, 11:37 PM

Thanks Andrew,
It wasn't cheap sadly, so I was hoping for more than just a glorified keyring. Its almost exactly (on little kitchen scales) 2oz, so quite chunky. Dealer said they'd had it for a while and nobody had definatively ID'd it.

Gavin Nugent · 12th July 2010, 12:09 AM

Gene,

Thats a stuuning litle piece of silverwork you have there. It is of the same quality, style and detail as the antique story Dha I have here and it amazes me how far the craftsmen can streeeeeetch a piece of silver.
I have no idea what it is and what it was used for but I'll ask around.

Gav

Atlantia · 13th July 2010, 11:31 PM

Thanks Gav

Atlantia · 18th July 2010, 12:41 AM

bump

Gavin Nugent · 18th July 2010, 03:17 AM

G'day,

I have been looking and looking.

What I can say at face value from my searching is that this only has aspects of the old world silverwork. The old stuff has very deep repousse work to all aspects, the vines for example are all a rather flat repousse work here where as the old stuff differs greatly with various differing peaks.
The more modern stuff does not have such a high repousse work which throws me a little at the centre figure shows better than average depth but all else lacks this 3D depth.

My thoughts; No idea what it is supposed to be. It appears to be done by someone with a good knowledge of the art but not with the full expression of the art. My thoughts are varied and the chain and loop have me stumped.

Gav

Mark · 18th July 2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Interesting piece...I love the repousse silver work as well. I would love to add a repoussed silver dha to the collection sometime with figures such as this...it was fantastic seeing Mark's at the Seminar this spring!

What is puzzling to me is why most of these heavily silver repousse swords appear to be exclusive to Burma? Would you say Burman to be specific Mark?

(Along with the Koftgari would be burman? Versus Kachin/ Shan. I'm sure the Koftgari was picked up from neighboring India.)

I've seen beautiful repoussed bowls from northern Thailand and Laos.

http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/s..._thailand.html

No idea why the deep repousse work on swords is exclusively Burman (I believe it is) - as you say, the technique is hardly unique to Burma. Quirk of history or taste, perhaps. As for what this is, I doubt it is a sword or dagger hanger. Its too small and the hook on the back would not, I think, be a very secure belt/sash attachment with something so heavy hanging off of it. The swords and daggers I have seen with similar decoration invariably have rings on the scabbard for a baldric cord attachment. I'm baffled.

Atlantia · 18th July 2010, 09:28 PM

Gav and Mark.

Thank you gentlemen for your help.
I am now regretfully in agreement that this is not a hanger for a weapon.
My thoughts are that it is either as was suggested to do with some aspect of Burmese costume, or that it is simply a Chatelaine, made with traditional 'flavour' but for the European market.

Best
Gene

Nathaniel · 18th July 2010, 11:12 PM

My feelings are it was made from the foreign market....say something like an accessory for a pocket watch to make things look a little more fancy perhaps?

Maybe it's a stretch....but I was trying to think of something lightweight that this silver hanger would tolerate...and perhaps something that was more common for a British or European to have on their person during the time period when this silver token was made.

Atlantia · 19th July 2010, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

My feelings are it was made from the foreign market....say something like an accessory for a pocket watch to make things look a little more fancy perhaps?

Maybe it's a stretch....but I was trying to think of something lightweight that this silver hanger would tolerate...and perhaps something that was more common for a British or European to have on their person during the time period when this silver token was made.

I hadn't thought of a watch... good idea Nathaniel.
Sadly, I think it's not really in keeping with my already to 'varied' collection now. Oh well.

Nathaniel · 19th July 2010, 03:06 AM

Yeah, Gene, I think it's size too suggest it could work as something like a decorative pocket watch loop... I know there are different types of attachments, but the picture I posted has a hook very similar to the your Silver Burmese piece.

I know in neighboring Thailand, the Thai people really do value clocks & watches...it can make a nice gift...it is very common to see shops in Thailand which solely clocks and watches...not something we see too much here at least in the USA...usually if a place sells nicer clocks it's a nice furniture store...or a jewelry store will sell watches and maybe some nice clocks....otherwise massive chain stores have taken over and most people go to Walmart, etc or chain jewelry stores in the mall...or now internet.

Irregardless, you have to admire the repousse similar to see in those beautiful dha, such as Mark's:

Nathaniel · 19th July 2010, 04:23 AM

From Pocketwatcher.org

http://www.pocketwatcher.org/categor...eltclipchains/

How to wear your watch / belt clip chains

How to Wear your Belt Clip Chain

These chains made their appearance mostly in the Edwardian period up to the Art Deco period in the 1930's. Usually handsomely engraved with pinstriping or geometric designs and perhaps initials, these metal pieces slid over a belt with a chain attached with a swivel to hold your watch. The watch would then be placed in the trouser pocket, thus insuring safe keeping.

Nathaniel · 19th July 2010, 04:28 AM

Being from the US, I had to look up the Edwardian Period:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwardian_era

"The Edwardian era or Edwardian period in the United Kingdom is the period covering the reign of King Edward VII, 1901 to 1910."

So the belt Clips where in style from roughly 1900-1940's

Which would coincide with British rule in Burma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Burma

"British rule in Burma lasted from 1824 to 1948"

10th July 2010, 08:04 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Fine Silver Thai/Burmese 'Hanger' Chatelaine or for a knife? Its so beautiful, I thought I'd take a chance. It's sort of like a chatelaine but....... Could it be for a more 'sinister' purpose? Extremely fine quality, high grade silver, high relief repouse figure of Rama with his bow. (If its just for keys or something mundane, it'll be for the block!)

12th July 2010, 12:09 AM	#14
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	very nice Gene, Thats a stuuning litle piece of silverwork you have there. It is of the same quality, style and detail as the antique story Dha I have here and it amazes me how far the craftsmen can streeeeeetch a piece of silver. I have no idea what it is and what it was used for but I'll ask around. Gav

18th July 2010, 03:17 AM	#17
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Looking G'day, I have been looking and looking. What I can say at face value from my searching is that this only has aspects of the old world silverwork. The old stuff has very deep repousse work to all aspects, the vines for example are all a rather flat repousse work here where as the old stuff differs greatly with various differing peaks. The more modern stuff does not have such a high repousse work which throws me a little at the centre figure shows better than average depth but all else lacks this 3D depth. My thoughts; No idea what it is supposed to be. It appears to be done by someone with a good knowledge of the art but not with the full expression of the art. My thoughts are varied and the chain and loop have me stumped. Gav

18th July 2010, 09:28 PM	#19
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Gav and Mark. Thank you gentlemen for your help. I am now regretfully in agreement that this is not a hanger for a weapon. My thoughts are that it is either as was suggested to do with some aspect of Burmese costume, or that it is simply a Chatelaine, made with traditional 'flavour' but for the European market. Best Gene Last edited by Atlantia; 18th July 2010 at 10:00 PM.

10th July 2010, 09:28 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Never seen anything like it. It is quite beautiful, though.

10th July 2010, 11:29 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thanks Mark. The figure of Rama is superb, amazingly detailed and not too rubbed over the years. Any thoughts on Origin or use?

11th July 2010, 03:11 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Nice deep repousse work. Always in awe of this type of work.

11th July 2010, 07:45 PM	#6
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Interesting piece...I love the repousse silver work as well. I would love to add a repoussed silver dha to the collection sometime with figures such as this...it was fantastic seeing Mark's at the Seminar this spring! What is puzzling to me is why most of these heavily silver repousse swords appear to be exclusive to Burma? Would you say Burman to be specific Mark? (Along with the Koftgari would be burman? Versus Kachin/ Shan. I'm sure the Koftgari was picked up from neighboring India.) I've seen beautiful repoussed bowls from northern Thailand and Laos. http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/s..._thailand.html

11th July 2010, 08:04 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thanks for the input Nathaniel. Heres a better pic of this piece

11th July 2010, 08:05 PM	#8
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	I think it's a sword loop belt hanger ..well...maybe not....just a little stretch of the imagination

11th July 2010, 08:06 PM	#9
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Alantia, much better picture! Gives you a better 3D perspective

11th July 2010, 08:35 PM	#12
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Love it! No idea, however, what its intended use is. It could, indeed, be intended to hang a sword or knife from (although the chain loop looks small). Or, perhaps something more mundane like a candle, votive, incense, flowers, a fan, etc.

11th July 2010, 11:37 PM	#13
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thanks Andrew, It wasn't cheap sadly, so I was hoping for more than just a glorified keyring. Its almost exactly (on little kitchen scales) 2oz, so quite chunky. Dealer said they'd had it for a while and nobody had definatively ID'd it.

13th July 2010, 11:31 PM	#15
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thanks Gav

18th July 2010, 12:41 AM	#16
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	bump

18th July 2010, 11:12 PM	#20
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	My feelings are it was made from the foreign market....say something like an accessory for a pocket watch to make things look a little more fancy perhaps? Maybe it's a stretch....but I was trying to think of something lightweight that this silver hanger would tolerate...and perhaps something that was more common for a British or European to have on their person during the time period when this silver token was made.

19th July 2010, 03:06 AM	#22
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Yeah, Gene, I think it's size too suggest it could work as something like a decorative pocket watch loop... I know there are different types of attachments, but the picture I posted has a hook very similar to the your Silver Burmese piece. I know in neighboring Thailand, the Thai people really do value clocks & watches...it can make a nice gift...it is very common to see shops in Thailand which solely clocks and watches...not something we see too much here at least in the USA...usually if a place sells nicer clocks it's a nice furniture store...or a jewelry store will sell watches and maybe some nice clocks....otherwise massive chain stores have taken over and most people go to Walmart, etc or chain jewelry stores in the mall...or now internet. Irregardless, you have to admire the repousse similar to see in those beautiful dha, such as Mark's:

19th July 2010, 04:23 AM	#23
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	From Pocketwatcher.org http://www.pocketwatcher.org/categor...eltclipchains/ How to wear your watch / belt clip chains How to Wear your Belt Clip Chain These chains made their appearance mostly in the Edwardian period up to the Art Deco period in the 1930's. Usually handsomely engraved with pinstriping or geometric designs and perhaps initials, these metal pieces slid over a belt with a chain attached with a swivel to hold your watch. The watch would then be placed in the trouser pocket, thus insuring safe keeping.

19th July 2010, 04:28 AM	#24
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Being from the US, I had to look up the Edwardian Period: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwardian_era "The Edwardian era or Edwardian period in the United Kingdom is the period covering the reign of King Edward VII, 1901 to 1910." So the belt Clips where in style from roughly 1900-1940's Which would coincide with British rule in Burma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Burma "British rule in Burma lasted from 1824 to 1948"