KIDONGKOL, KIROMPANG, NAGARUNCING

Pangeran Datu · 11th March 2007, 11:35 PM

G'day all,

I'd appreciate ANY info, drawings etc. on the following kerises:

Kidongkol

Kirompang

Nagaruncing

It's pretty obvious that I know next-to-nothing about them, only that they're from Java(?), probably West Java.

Thanks.

ferrylaki · 13th March 2007, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

G'day all,

I'd appreciate ANY info, drawings etc. on the following kerises:

Kidongkol

Kirompang

Nagaruncing

It's pretty obvious that I know next-to-nothing about them, only that they're from Java(?), probably West Java.

Thanks.

this is only a sample picture. some one said this is a nagaruncing keris.
but I think this is a newly made keris with naga.
some good friends from this forum also said so.
once again this is just a sample picture....just like to share an information.
since I'm not the expert .... forgive me if I wrong.

regards,
ferry

Pangeran Datu · 14th March 2007, 09:28 PM

G'day Ferry,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.
Someone showed me a picture of what the person said was a Nagaruncing; a couple of days ago. It was very similar to yours, it looked like a new a 11-Luk Nagasasra.
I am a bit confused because someone else assured me that Nagaruncing was tangguh Pajajaran.
As far as I know, the only Nagasasra-type keris tangguh Pajajaran was made by Empu Hanjani and then, it was only a NINE-Luk.

All may be revealed in the ripeness of time.

Thanks again.

Cheers.

David · 14th March 2007, 10:53 PM

I could be wrong on this Pangeran, but as far as i know dapur is not contingent on tangguh. In other words, someone could very well make a brand new example of a dapur that was originally made by and empu from the Parajaran kingdom and it would still be called by that dapur name. It just wouldn't be that tangguh. I hope that clears up your confusion.

Pangeran Datu · 15th March 2007, 12:56 AM

G'day David,

You're quite right of course. Tangguh can mean ACTUALLY from an era or MADE IN THE STYLE of that era.
I was only questioning why an 11-Luk Nagsasra tangguh Pajajaran (new or otherwise) would be called a Nagaruncing, whereas a 9-Luk Nagasasra made by an Empu during the actual era is merely referred to as a 9-Luk Nagasasra.
As I said before, I know next-to-nothing about it.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Cheers.

David · 15th March 2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

You're quite right of course. Tangguh can mean ACTUALLY from an era or MADE IN THE STYLE of that era.

ACTUALLY, i don't believe this is correct. A new blade "MADE IN THE STYLE" of, say, a Mataram or Tuban, does NOT have the tunggah of those periods. It is merely "made in the style of".
Tangguh is also not a system that is meant to be applied to all keris or even all Javanese keris. It is often misused in this sense as it can really only be properly applied to blades of kraton quality.

Pangeran Datu · 15th March 2007, 09:58 PM

G’day David,

Like with many things, there are many different thoughts on the matter. As there are no standards ‘set in concrete’ acceptable to everyone, I merely used what I see as today’s general perception in the marketplace.
Personally, I believe that tangguh is a ‘guesstimate’ of age i.e. approximately when it was made (were I able to narrow it down to its creator, even better). If I were to merely restrict tangguh to karaton keris, then I would be severely restricting the area from which to draw samples. Then of course, there is the matter of definition of what constitutes a ‘karaton keris’ (deja vu

).
With respect to your example, there are some circles who would refer to such a keris as: ‘tangguh’ Mataram/Tuban ‘yasan’……(whatever).
As for what 'should be', who knows. For instance, 'Serat Centini', held as gospel by many, was only written c. 1815 by literary scholars. There are other such documents which predate this.
Anyway, I’m not here to enter into debate. I opened this thread merely to obtain information. I’ll 'soak in' any information.

Cheers.

David · 15th March 2007, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Anyway, I’m not here to enter into debate. I opened this thread merely to obtain information. I’ll 'soak in' any information.

I dunno, i think any information worth knowing is both worthy of and open to debating. If you soak in all information without debating about it you are liable to "soak in" and end up repeating quite a lot of falsehood. As for what is "the general perception in the marketplace"...well that area is rife with misconception. If you chose to accept it all as fact that is, of course, your business.
BTW, what i actually wrote was "kraton quality" keris, which is not the same as resticting the use of tangguh strictly to keris made solely for the kraton.

David · 16th March 2007, 05:01 AM

I guess that for this discussion's sake it would probably be better to leave the term kraton completely out of the conversation as it is bound to lead to confusion (i.e. the 'what constitutes a kraton keris' thread

) and merely refer to the term "quality" (which will, no doubt, also lead to confusion

). As i am sure you know Pangeran, tangguh is determined by an assessment of quite a number of aspects of the blade, including, but not limited to, the overall pawakan, type and quality of iron, type of pamor material, various ricikan and the manner in which they are executed, the weight of the blade, etc.
In a blade of "quality" these clues to the tangguh of the blade will fall within a very strict parameter. The better the blade, the easier, in theory, it should be to place it within it's appropriate tangguh. But as we descend downward in quality i would imagine this would become harder and harder to do. It would seem that the farther we move away from the strict standard of keris perfection, the less likely anyone would be capable of accurately placing it within a tangguh. Village pandai might find it harder to obtain the correct iron or quality of pamor material necessary to meet these standards. Lesser forging skills might create ricikan that don't quite fit neatly into the parameters of the day. Many keris might in fact display details from more than one tangguh. I do not believe that the tangguh system was developed to assess these types of keris.

As for circles that would refer to a newly made keris as a tangguh Mataram because it is made as a copy of a Mataram form, i suppose if you find enough people to agree with something you can call yourself a club, but i would personally have trouble with that assessment.

I am not familar with the term "yasan" and can't find it in any Indonesian dictionary. Is it a slang term?

11th March 2007, 11:35 PM	#1
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	KIDONGKOL, KIROMPANG, NAGARUNCING G'day all, I'd appreciate ANY info, drawings etc. on the following kerises: Kidongkol Kirompang Nagaruncing It's pretty obvious that I know next-to-nothing about them, only that they're from Java(?), probably West Java. Thanks.

14th March 2007, 09:28 PM	#3
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	G'day Ferry, Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. Someone showed me a picture of what the person said was a Nagaruncing; a couple of days ago. It was very similar to yours, it looked like a new a 11-Luk Nagasasra. I am a bit confused because someone else assured me that Nagaruncing was tangguh Pajajaran. As far as I know, the only Nagasasra-type keris tangguh Pajajaran was made by Empu Hanjani and then, it was only a NINE-Luk. All may be revealed in the ripeness of time. Thanks again. Cheers.

14th March 2007, 10:53 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	I could be wrong on this Pangeran, but as far as i know dapur is not contingent on tangguh. In other words, someone could very well make a brand new example of a dapur that was originally made by and empu from the Parajaran kingdom and it would still be called by that dapur name. It just wouldn't be that tangguh. I hope that clears up your confusion.

15th March 2007, 12:56 AM	#5
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	G'day David, You're quite right of course. Tangguh can mean ACTUALLY from an era or MADE IN THE STYLE of that era. I was only questioning why an 11-Luk Nagsasra tangguh Pajajaran (new or otherwise) would be called a Nagaruncing, whereas a 9-Luk Nagasasra made by an Empu during the actual era is merely referred to as a 9-Luk Nagasasra. As I said before, I know next-to-nothing about it. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Cheers.

15th March 2007, 09:58 PM	#7
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	G’day David, Like with many things, there are many different thoughts on the matter. As there are no standards ‘set in concrete’ acceptable to everyone, I merely used what I see as today’s general perception in the marketplace. Personally, I believe that tangguh is a ‘guesstimate’ of age i.e. approximately when it was made (were I able to narrow it down to its creator, even better). If I were to merely restrict tangguh to karaton keris, then I would be severely restricting the area from which to draw samples. Then of course, there is the matter of definition of what constitutes a ‘karaton keris’ (deja vu ). With respect to your example, there are some circles who would refer to such a keris as: ‘tangguh’ Mataram/Tuban ‘yasan’……(whatever). As for what 'should be', who knows. For instance, 'Serat Centini', held as gospel by many, was only written c. 1815 by literary scholars. There are other such documents which predate this. Anyway, I’m not here to enter into debate. I opened this thread merely to obtain information. I’ll 'soak in' any information. Cheers.

16th March 2007, 05:01 AM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	I guess that for this discussion's sake it would probably be better to leave the term kraton completely out of the conversation as it is bound to lead to confusion (i.e. the 'what constitutes a kraton keris' thread ) and merely refer to the term "quality" (which will, no doubt, also lead to confusion ). As i am sure you know Pangeran, tangguh is determined by an assessment of quite a number of aspects of the blade, including, but not limited to, the overall pawakan, type and quality of iron, type of pamor material, various ricikan and the manner in which they are executed, the weight of the blade, etc. In a blade of "quality" these clues to the tangguh of the blade will fall within a very strict parameter. The better the blade, the easier, in theory, it should be to place it within it's appropriate tangguh. But as we descend downward in quality i would imagine this would become harder and harder to do. It would seem that the farther we move away from the strict standard of keris perfection, the less likely anyone would be capable of accurately placing it within a tangguh. Village pandai might find it harder to obtain the correct iron or quality of pamor material necessary to meet these standards. Lesser forging skills might create ricikan that don't quite fit neatly into the parameters of the day. Many keris might in fact display details from more than one tangguh. I do not believe that the tangguh system was developed to assess these types of keris. As for circles that would refer to a newly made keris as a tangguh Mataram because it is made as a copy of a Mataram form, i suppose if you find enough people to agree with something you can call yourself a club, but i would personally have trouble with that assessment. I am not familar with the term "yasan" and can't find it in any Indonesian dictionary. Is it a slang term?