Arms room Grand Palace Bangkok

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

My apologies on the photography in this post. They didn't allow photos and while I did try to get permission it was going to take longer than I had left in country to gain it. Soooo... I had the wife run interference while I snapped from the hip with flash off. You can get the jist of some of the construction and an overall impression so it may be valuable to some out there.

First picture just to show you the volume of swords they had.



These next styles are what they are reffering to as Bangkok era darb. All had silver handles and scabbards. Some may notice the scabbards of the chinese jian above this. They told me that some Thai officers preffered this type that's why they are in the armory.



This next lot I was told were the swords of the common warriors / house guards. Apart from their current appalling condition and the fact that many are missing their pommels you can note that most (despite the green stains) are wooden handled and wooden scabbards with brass fittings. There were three distinct handle variations to these. 2nd from left you can make out (I hope) a spiral design carved into the handle. Another batch had a spiral zigzag pattern and third (far right) had lateral grooves/udulations. I questioned Mrs. Nattapat (director of research at SPAFA) about this and she told me that each unit had its own design. JT, you probably recognize the one style as that of the contemporary darb you just picked up.



This next picture is what they refer to as the late Ayutthaya style. You can't note it in this picture but most of these had remnants of neillo work.



Another lousy photo but these are the swords of high ranking officials. All had tooled silver handles and scabbards some with gold trim. Definately the case to see if you get over there. Of note is that two of them had scabbards that tapered to a point, sorry no explaination.



A surprise to me was the badek. During the same interview with Mrs. Nattapat she took particular note of the photo of Mark's display and when I mentioned that Mark put in the badek to fill a space and it wasn't Thai, she said that many of the Thai mid-grade officers carried one.



The keris, though not a complete surprise as the coat of arms of the king has crossed darb and keris, the sheer number and size of the keris astounded me. All were extremely large most in the 2-2 1/2 foot length, the majority of a bugis style. All the arches were covered with these and all of the many museum that I visited had keris in residence. I saw several photos and illustrations from the Rama IV and prior eras that showed officials and high ranking officers carrying both a keris and a darb.



and yes even a few parang on the walls (to the right)



Last note was the quantity of Japanese style swords that were there (sorry those pictures weren't worth posting. This style of sword was favored by many of the upper-class. Mrs. Nattapat noted a active trade in blades in exchange for rayskin and such, but the handles and scabbards were made in Siam. They did note on placard below the Japanese style blades that around 1600 many Japanese were working in the Kingdom. One particular individual, Yamada Nagasama, petitioned the king and received approval to put together a volunteer force of some 300, all Japanese. This same individual eventually was awarded "Chao Phraya" status the highest status attainable in the Kingdom.

We (Mike Ngyuen and I) did get access to the National Museum and while I was unable to return to Bangkok, Mike was able to take that opportunity to get some photos. He will put together a gallery soon and we'll let you know when he has it up.

[RhysMichael]

Thanks Dan. Lots of good information here and yes I did see the handle resemblance on the dha I just got. I have had several people tell me they had keris that came from thailand so this helps to clear that up . I am distressed at the condition of the swords kept there. Though we saw pictures at the timonium dinner last year from India that showed even worse storage and maintenece on swords; it is still a true shame. The time you and Mike spent there gathered a huge amount of information and once I sort it all out it will help me a great deal. The Japanese and Chinese influnce seems to be taking a greater role than I previously thought on these. Did the Grand Palace or the National Museum indicate they had a catelogue of these swords ? If so I need to try to obtain one. The badek was a total surprise though it probably should not have been. I can't wait to see Mikes's Pictures.

I am wondering that now that we can save pictures here if we should not start some categorized threads on things like "Thailand National Museum" , "Bankok Royal" palace" or "thai swordmakers" that we could post pictures and informations on these in a way that may be easier to recall and research with, and people could add information there as we get it. Just a thought as I refer back often to Ians Contemporary Dha thread, the threads on the initial Greaves-Winston system, and the recent thread on the provenance of thai sword.

[Ian]

Dan:

Again, we who have difficulty getting to mainland SE Asia are indebted to you for yet another excellent photo essay on our favorite sword genre. You continue to move us forward in the quest for new knowledge and insight.

I wonder if there may not be some areas of mutual interest to explore with a couple of the institutions that you visited. For example, the sad condition of many of these swords does not reflect the true state of the arms, or glory of the periods they represent. I'm wondering if these museums might let a few foreigners assist them in restoring some representative examples, so that the Thai people might better appreciate their heritage. In return we could learn a lot and obtain the pictures we seek.

After all, many of us have been lavishing loving care on our own examples for years, and we probably know as much about restoring and repairing these swords as many "experts" -- worth asking?

Ian.

[Adni Aljunied]

Wow! Am sure going to make some time to this place soon.
Am truly surpirse to see the badeks being associated with the Thais. From the pics the top half sure looks Bugis, with the "pitol grip" like handle, and one is clearly a sewah, with the typical handle and blade with a "ferrule" made one with the blade. But the bottom half are a lot more golok or "pisau" (Knife) looking.
Sadly the keris pictures are not that good, and althoguh there are a few Bugis pieces, they seems not to have a typical Bugis handle, only from the sheath we see the Bugis feature. The ones at the top appears longer, but surely not Bugis, and has more Javanese looking sheaths, but if the length is more than 2 feet, than they cud be Balinese, but then again the fittings and especially the handle is not Balinese.
Biggest surprise is not to see either a Tajong or a Coteng!!! Maybe you did not took any pictures??
Very interesting indeed, and wish I have the time to go there in the near future, but have a trip planned elsewhere already.
Thanks Khun Deng for the splendid infos, and wish the photos are more clearer, but nonetheless, you and the wife did a good "007" job taking it.

[ariel]

I visited the Royal Palace and this museum about 5 years ago. Tremendous number of interesting swords but total lack of any academic information (unlike, say, Topkapi) and absolutely appalling condition. Virtually all exponates are exibited "in the open", and some are stored in flimsy glass cages. The doors to the exhibition rooms lead straight outside and are wide open; there is no climate control and the heat/humidity are unbearable. It was a mystery to me how these blades still retained their form and not disintegrated into small piles of rust. Most blades were covered with dark-brown or reddish layers of rust and the wooden/ivory handles had nasty-looking stains on them. It was sad to look at and very difficult to understand why didn't the Royal family take better care of the national heritage.....

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Ariel, with the risk of being ,,avocatus diaboli,, that is exactly one of the best reasons why I am not so pro-restitution from Euro-American museums, I had serious conflicts in our own museums debating over ,,wall,, or ,,case,, display or restoration detail and I accused my own execs of carelesness over such but those seem ,,snobish,, minor things when looking at this, in a place of such importance , true national armorial tresure, it enrages me the preservation ignorance of major historical artifacts specially when they have an edge or a barrel... it might even be better for the sake of preservation to go in private collections ... Since efforts of preservation here looks more like going fishing with dynamite in a coral reef maybe ,,Ocean 13,, wouldnt be a bad idea ? ...

[wolviex]

Beautiful exposition, but the condition of the objects is indeed gruesome. I work in Museum, I really do understand financial problems of some museums, where everything, even paper to write a letter (not mention about pencils) you must buy by yourself, becouse of lack of money - but even then there is no chance to display object which is rusty. And here we can see a truly kingdom of rust! UNBELIEVABLE!!! Somebody should made serious intervention there before it's too late!!
It doesn't mean there are no rusty object in my museum - I admit, but they're waiting for conservation in refuge of magazines.

[Mark]

Great pictures, Dan. The number of blades there is just amazing.

I, too, am of course appalled at their condition. I imagine climate control in Bangkok is not an easy proposition, however. Still, I image that the royal family has sufficient funds to at least do something. Perhaps we can be the catalyst? Who knows? We just need to push ahead with our research, cultivate the contacts you have made, and show them that we are sincere. Hopefully there will be a chnage in attitude.

[Andrew]

Wow.

Dan, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I'm blown away by the number of swords there. The condition doesn't excite me, but those photos certainly do.

With nearly every post you make, I'm more and more grateful for your work, and simultaneously frustrated by my personal lack of time.

You rock!

Best,
Andrew

[VANDOO]

IT IS TRULY SAD TO SEE SUCH A LARGE AND IMPORTANT COLLECTION IN SUCH POOR CONDITION. THE WAY FOR THEM TO GO WITH THEIR MUSEUM IS TO FIND A PROFESSIONAL CONSERVATOR AND HAVE HIM OR HIS TEAM WORK ON THE MOST IMPORTANT EXAMPLES AND ALSO TEACH SOME OF THE LOCALS HOW TO RESTORE, PRESERVE AND CARE FOR THE COLLECTION. AS LABOR IS CHEAP IN THAILAND THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO HIRE A CREW OF THOSE TRAINED TO GET ALL THEIR SWORDS IN ACCEPTABLE CONDITION. AFTER EVERYTHING IS IN STABLE AND CLEAN CONDITION A SMALLER CREW COULD KEEP THE COLLECTION IN GOOD SHAPE. THE OTHERS MIGHT FIND WORK IN OTHER MUSEUMS IN THE SAME SHAPE AS THIS ONE PRESENTLY IS.

CONSERVATORS ARE EXPENSIVE HERE AND THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH MONEY AVAILABLE TO DO ALL THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE SO MOST THINGS HAVE TO BE PUT OFF. WHAT GETS TAKEN CARE OF ALSO DEPENDS ON THE INTRESTS OF THE CURRENT HEAD CURATOR. THE MUSEUM IN THAILAND APPEARS TO BE OF THE OLD STYLE ( JUST GET A LOT OF STUFF AND DISPLAY IT AND THEN LET IT STAY THAT WAY FOREVER WITH NO CONSERVATION). THAILAND IS A BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY AND I LIKE THE PEOPLE AND THEIR WAY OF LIFE SO IT IS A SHAME TO SEE SUCH A IMPORTANT ESTABLISHMENT AS THIS MUSEUM SO SADLY NEGLECTED.
THE PICTURES DO SERVE TO SEE MORE EXAMPLES OF DHA AND THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE OTHER WEAPONS THERE IS GOOD. YOU HAVE ADDED MORE TO THE POOL OF KNOWLEGE HERE AND PERHAPS WORD MAY GET BACK TO THE MUSEUM OR SOMEONE WITH DEEP POCKETS AND DHA FEVER MAY HELP THE MUSEUM OUT OR STIR THEM UP TO FIX IT. WAY TO GO!!

[Rather]

I do agree with former comments, great collection, but in extremely poor condition. In my opinion it is not a matter of funds, it is a matter of general approach to the displayed items. I am not talking about a professional restoration, but about pure and simple conservation. Why are so many old Japanese blades still in tremendous condition, while European swords of the same age are mostly found in much poorer shape and we accept spots of rust on them as normal. The Samurai sword was always and is still esteemed, but for generations nobody cared about the old swords here. So, it is important that the persons responsible for the collection realise the immense historical value and don’t treat the displayed items just as curiosities.
This in not a problem you will find only in Thailand. I remember that till a few years ago the municipal museum of Moelln, a small town near Hamburg, still displayed 400 years old execution swords the same way. Or the Museum for Islamic Art in Kairo, they had problems with a display of copper coins, so they just used a few drops of all purpose glue to fix them…...

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

Let me see if I can address your questions and comments. To clear up any confusion this is the Grand Palace Arms Room. They have a seperate museum that holds all royal weapons (climate controlled - beautifully displayed in modern exhibit cases) jewelry, coinage, awards, costumes, etc.
And this is not the National Museum or part of the National Museum system who's weapons could also use some work, though their branch in Lop Buri was well taken care of and instituting continual improvements. There are really two seperate entities at work here, an individual with a title a mile long that is in charge of all royal possesions and the government in charge of the museums. Neither consider these weapons of historical importance, that is reserved for royal weapons which even in the National museum are in another section in very nice exhibit cases.
I hope this next doesn't sound too defensive (I have been accused of being part Thai before) but the royal family has funneled most of its resources into infrastructure projects for the past 60 years and projects that would allow income growth to its subjects while the civilian government fought for power. All over the country you see trade associations, Fina Arts associations, reserviors, road projects all with little signs underneath that say "under the patronage of HRH ....) I know NO politics on the forum, but it should be mentioned that HRH Princess Sirindhron is a world renown scholar and has been the driving force behind most of the projects to capture and collate Thai history, so I can't fault them for this minor shortfall in the overall scheem of things.

JT, The Grand Palace does not have a catalogue. the National Museum (again seperate from the palace) doesn't either. The National Museum in conjjunction with the Fine Arts dept. has published a book called "Heritage of Thai Culture". I was lucky enough to find a single copy in English at the Lop Buri museum and I have made copies of the weapons section I can send you and anyone else that would like one. At the National Museum, after our request for photos and provenance on their swords, the curator Mrs. Jarunee took the initiative to start building a data base with photos and provenance. Mike Ngyuen, who has been an enormous help, is mailing her initial product to me today. I still have to figure out the data base and then translate the provenance.

Ian, I didn't get anywhere on contacts at the palace. They wanted a request in Thai to pass up to the keeper of the royal possesions just to get an appointment to give our brief and Mrs Nattapat basically told me not to hold my breath. I will however pass on your restoration inquery to Mrs Jarunee at the National museum when I send off our thank you letter.

Adni, I also noted those knives under the badeks but was unfamiliar with them. They had a yataghan type handle was all I could tell. While I'm not up on keris, the mix of styles was evident even to me. I assumed this was due to ignorance as many didn't have handles and some looked like they didn't quite fit their sheaths. As for tajong I didn't note any at the palace but the museum had some, sorry no pictures, this was a dha/darb project.

Mike has posted the first gallery from the National museum look for the post.

Thanks all for your kind words.

Khun Deng

[Mick]

If I remember the arms room correctly (after almost 40 years), You walked right into a large structure at street level (after a small court) and it also had a large collection of original firearms in addition to the swords. It had not only Colt gatling guns with and without carriages on the floor, but also Colt revolving rifles in racks along with a lot of other old but less vaulable stuff.

Is this the same area you all went into?

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

Yep that's it! it's the last stop on the route they have marked out as you walk through the palace grounds. Didn't see the Gatlin gun, but I WAS distracted by all the steel. The museum is the first thing you hit after buying the tickets just before you enter the ticket taking area, it's easy to walk right past it as you follow the line going to the turnstyle but don't it is fabulous.

[zelbone]

Dan, great covert photo recon you did ! This is the kind of place I'd love to visit if I'm ever in that area! Swords galore!

[Federico]

Makes you wonder, how much more impressive these collections of arms must have been in their hey day, when they were in better condition. Most impressive pics, thank so very much.