Whoa ! Moro

Rick · 29th April 2006, 10:18 PM

Someone paid a handsome sum for these two basket cases !
Don't forget to add a 22.5% Buyers premium !

http://tinyurl.com/e9zmj

ariel · 29th April 2006, 11:01 PM

Rick,
Why do you call them "basket cases"?
What are the problems with them?
As you see, I still need handholding in the Moroland

Rick · 29th April 2006, 11:29 PM

The ivory junggayan pommel is broken ; the other sword is missing its pommel . The blade with the ivory pommel looks okay but the other one IMO only looks so-so .

So this bidder paid well over $1,300.00 for two damaged krisses with no scabbards plus 5% sales tax . The only special thing about this pair , the ivory junggayan pommel , is broken and would be a tough and expensive repair .
I don't think these two would fetch this price (including buyers premium

) on ebay .

Ian · 30th April 2006, 12:04 AM

Agree completely Rick. Without the broken piece of ivory (nowhere in sight) it would be a tough task to recreate the junggayan hilt. What's left of it looks good, but a big chunk is missing. That would be an expensive repair. The second one is a very ordinary Mindanao kris from c. 1900 that needs a complete redo of the hilt wrap. Not a hard repair, but also not a very valuable sword.

At that price I can only assume that the buyer thought he could repair the ivory hilt relatively easily -- good luck with that!

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The ivory junggayan pommel is broken ; the other sword is missing its pommel . The blade with the ivory pommel looks okay but the other one IMO only looks so-so .

So this bidder paid well over $1,300.00 for two damaged krisses with no scabbards plus 5% sales tax . The only special thing about this pair , the ivory junggayan pommel , is broken and would be a tough and expensive repair .
I don't think these two would fetch this price (including buyers premium

) on ebay .

Rick · 30th April 2006, 01:44 AM

Yep !
Whoever that was hosed himself to the tune of almost $1,400.00 .
I noticed all the sane people dropped out at about $600.00 ; even then too much .

This auction house 'Buyer's Premium' stuff is getting way out of hand lately ; I'm surprised ebay hasn't had an effect on decreasing it .

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 02:30 AM

The ivory pommel kris has an impressive and nice sor-soran, with well-defined greneng which looks like to be of a more uncommon form. The pommel itself shows a good level of sophistication judging from what's left of it, and the shallow grooves and lines on it. I noticed that the baca-baca looks old and very sturdy. Perhaps the seller knows of someone who can restore the lost crown on the kakatua pommel, and perhaps make a sheath for it. Maybe that explains why he would pay so much for it.

On another related subject - there has been a trend of person or persons who throw in irrationally high bids on kerises on ebay, and in some cases, not paying for the winning bids at all. This is not good. Hopefully the person or persons behind these irrational bidding would stop because it does not benefit anyone, including themselves.

Rick · 30th April 2006, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The ivory pommel kris has an impressive and nice sor-soran, with well-defined greneng which looks like to be of a more uncommon form. The pommel itself shows a good level of sophistication judging from what's left of it, and the shallow grooves and lines on it. I noticed that the baca-baca looks old and very sturdy. Perhaps the seller knows of someone who can restore the lost crown on the kakatua pommel, and perhaps make a sheath for it. Maybe that explains why he would pay so much for it.

On another related subject - there has been a trend of person or persons who throw in irrationally high bids on kerises on ebay, and in some cases, not paying for the winning bids at all. This is not good. Hopefully the person or persons behind these irrational bidding would stop because it does not benefit anyone, including themselves.

Possibly Kai wee ; I find myself more impressed by the greneng on that blade ; at any rate it seems to be quality for sure and maybe the floor bidder could see a core pattern in the blade

... but even the part of the pommel that's left is damaged . One would be almost better off having an entirely new one carved . I shudder to think what that would cost

.

From my experience most of the Moro kris available come out of the States because of the Span Am and Moro Wars . These two look to have had a hard life .

I always wonder what things would be like today if Gen'l Pershing's order had not been implemented .

As to the horse's rear end that has been playing games on ebay .. what a shame !
I wonder if it's another Dealer or a Prankster .

ariel · 30th April 2006, 04:03 AM

Or the seller....

panday · 30th April 2006, 10:02 AM

panday · 30th April 2006, 10:26 AM

Ebay bidding wars now a days is so extream, and it's getting worse day by day! you got'ta push your self sometimes to get what you want, otherwise, you'll get dust

When I bid, I make sure that I have the capacity to sustain that responsibility when it comes back at me, even to the max. As they say, good stuff are priceless! so eh! don't blame this guys if they want to add this priceless pieces on there collections. . . .blame the bug that bit them

Spunjer · 30th April 2006, 12:14 PM

yeah, i was watching the live auction on that one.

going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?

nechesh · 30th April 2006, 02:24 PM

You know, i think that the ivory pommel kris is a fine looking weapon even with the damage.....but i think i wouldn't be willing to pay more than half that price for it. If it were mine i don't think i would try to restore such damage. I think it would be really difficult to make it look right without the original piece.

Ian · 30th April 2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?

Battara might be able to give us some insight on this. But it looks a really difficult repair to me. To create a decent joint it would probably be necessary to trim more off what is left. Matching the grain of the new ivory with the old, and continuing the carved lines on the added piece would seem a major challenge. And new ivory would look odd on this old piece. A whole new ivory hilt would probably be necessary IMO. Finding an expert ivory carver for the old repair or a new piece would be a big challenge too.

Rick · 30th April 2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

You know, i think that the ivory pommel kris is a fine looking weapon even with the damage.....but i think i wouldn't be willing to pay more than half that price for it. If it were mine i don't think i would try to restore such damage. I think it would be really difficult to make it look right without the original piece.

I hear what you're saying Nechesh ; I might have paid $3-$400.00 for it but when I start to think that way this picture always pops into my mind .

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

yeah, i was watching the live auction on that one.

going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?

I think the repair will always be visible, it's only a matter of how obvious. I have seen incredibly good old repairs to wood and ivory in which the new piece fitted perfectly with the old piece, and the new piece was stained to closely match the original colour.

In my collection, I have an mid-period tajong (probably 18th century) which had suffered substantial damage to its buah pinang and one of its shoulders. One of its previous owner deemed it valuable enough to repair, and well-repaired it was. The shoulder portion was also carved to match the lines that was flowing from the main body. I think if you look intently, you can see where the repairs were.

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 04:22 PM

.

VANDOO · 30th April 2006, 04:57 PM

KNOWLEGABLE COLLECTORS AND ART COLLECTORS WHO DO IT FOR INVESTMENT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE ARE WORLDS APART. WHEN YOU SEE THE WORDS GALLERY, SOUTHBYS, OR CHRISTIES THE MAIN TARGET BUYERS GROUPS ARE THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY WHO WILL LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY A ITEM IS WORTH AND WHAT THEY PROJECT IT WILL BE WORTH SHORTLY AS A INVESTMENT. SO IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SOMETHING TO SELL FOR MUCH MORE THAN WE WOULD PAY AS THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IT IS USUALLY APRAISED AT MORE THAN THEY END UP PAYING AND THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD HOW FAST THE PRICE IS RISING AND THAT IT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT INCREASING FASTER THAN GOLD, STOCKS OR ANY OTHER INVESTMENTS. IT WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO INCREASE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAKEING ANY MORE AND THE TRIBES WILL SOON BE GONE FOREVER.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT MANY OF THESE COLLECTOR/INVESTORS CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FACT IT SOLD AT SOUTHBYS OR CHRISTIES ECT. AND THAT THEY THINK IT WILL MAKE THEM LOADS OF MONEY THAN THEY DO ABOUT THE OBJECTS THEY BUY. THE BUG THAT EATS THEM IS MONEY NOT THE DESIRE TO HAVE , STUDY AND PRESERVE A UNIQUE ARTEFACT OF ANOTHER TIME AND PEOPLE AS IT IS WITH US. A GOOD THING IS SOME INVESTORS MAY GET BITTEN BY THE BUG THAT BIT US ALL IN THE PROCESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS AND THEY GET THE KNOWLEGE AND CONECTIONS, OFTEN A TRULY GREAT COLLECTION COMES TOGETHER. WITH KNOWLEGE AND PLENTY OF CASH TO BUY ANYTHING YOU WANT YOU CAN PUT A COLLECTION TOGETHER THAT HAS ONLY THE BEST EXAMPLES. (I CAN ONLY DREAM

)

IT IS VEXING TO SEE PRICES DRIVEN UP ON WHAT WE LOVE ESPECIALLY WHEN A DAMAGED ITEM BRINGS A PRICE THAT WOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN APPROPRIATE OR HIGH FOR ONE IN PERFECT CONDITION. BUT SNAKE OIL SALESMEN THESE DAYS ARE NEVER SATISFIED WITH THEIR GAINS NO MATTER WHAT PERCENT OF PROFIT THEY ARE MAKEING THEY ALWAYS WANT TO PUSH IT HIGHER.

ariel · 30th April 2006, 07:31 PM

These comments beg for a general question:
Is it appropriate and desirable to perform extensive repair on the antiques that were damaged by age, use and (inevitably, as they are instruments of war) abuse?
I am not trying to argue one way or another, but just want your opinions:
if you get a great sword with a noticeably damaged handle and the damage is also obviously old, would you repair the damage to make it invisible even though the repair negates the history and the experience of the sword? Is it permissible to perform an extensive (and often expensive) cosmetic surgery on a weapon not in order to restore it's needed function but to superficially return it to the pristine state? Even more, would you further enhance the appearance, such as silver-cladding the handle, or attaching a junggayan handle to a great blade with an original but ordinary one?
I am not talking about actual users who put a new handle on a sword to take it to battle (that goes without saying!) but about collectors who want to have a virginally- perfect sword on the wall.

Rick · 30th April 2006, 08:14 PM

Hi Ariel , just my opinion but I think this can be quite a subjective question .

In the case of the krisses under discussion I'm led to ask myself "What would the original owner do ?" ; in most cases I think that if the sword in its native environment was damaged to the point of the ivory pommel piece in question that either a repair , replacement or modification would be done . I would also think the same would apply to the kris without a pommel .

Now this may be unique to the world of keris and kris ; but the heart and soul of these weapons is the blade regardless of Indo/Malay or Moro origin .
In these cultures dress was and is replaced regularly as it aged or was damaged ; not to do so was considered disrespectful to the keris/kris itself .
Often hilts would be removed and sold if the owner hit hard times ; then a less expensive hilt would be used .
Now when these pieces wind up in Western hands *in my opinion* providing a quality repair or replacement can be done if it is in keeping with the culture .

When it comes down to it the blade is the heart and soul of the keris/kris and is deserving of honor regardless of the culture it winds up in .

Tim Simmons · 30th April 2006, 08:42 PM

I think ariel touches on a very good point. What is restoration? Old damage can be seen as part of the objects life and may in some rare occasions add value. Repair to recent damage is problematic how far do you go? This piece presented a dilemma for me. It arrived with some damage then to rub salt into the wound I dropped it again, anyway a big chunk was missing, the damage was done!
Do I leave it looking damaged and ugly or do something about it. I hope I have taken a middle road, what I have done is no worse than the damage. I have only hinted at how it would have been, I could very easily fake it up a lot more, I shall not say how. I am hoping to the future owners, the repair will also be older, will see it just as an honest attempt to keep a lovely thing looking nice and still feel good in the hand. I have others with the same kind of damage that is old and for some reason looks so very different and acceptable.

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 10:29 PM

For me, I feel that as long as the repair/replacement follows the traditional style of where the piece comes from, it is fine. This often entails the engagement of craftsmen who are from that culture.

BluErf · 30th April 2006, 10:32 PM

Hey Tim, that's a great repair. Maybe you want to stain the wood to match the original wood colour? Don't worry, people would still be able to see that it was repaired.

Battara · 2nd May 2006, 01:55 AM

Ok folks, here I go (by request).

I was one of the bidders for these puppies but dropped out. I was thinking of restoring them. I do agree that the money paid is toooooo much (though I haven't got that much anyway). I was looking at repairing the way Ian had suggested. Yes, pre-ban ivory is exensive, but for the money I was willing to spend (half of what was paid?) it would have evened out (especially after selling the other one). Who ever got it will be paying more than it is worth now (especially if any restoration is done). The hardest part would be matching the grain, and that can not be done perfectly anyway. Yes some trim to the original, or certainly there will be a break line no matter what. I can live with that if it were not too obvious. I will never know now.......

The other one - new head and new wrap. (silver for me

).

Spunjer · 19th May 2006, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Ok folks, here I go (by request).

I was one of the bidders for these puppies but dropped out. I was thinking of restoring them. I do agree that the money paid is toooooo much (though I haven't got that much anyway). I was looking at repairing the way Ian had suggested. Yes, pre-ban ivory is exensive, but for the money I was willing to spend (half of what was paid?) it would have evened out (especially after selling the other one). Who ever got it will be paying more than it is worth now (especially if any restoration is done). The hardest part would be matching the grain, and that can not be done perfectly anyway. Yes some trim to the original, or certainly there will be a break line no matter what. I can live with that if it were not too obvious. I will never know now.......

The other one - new head and new wrap. (silver for me ).

how about the color? would it match? it is indeed a beautiful junggayan.

D Wilke · 19th May 2006, 07:59 AM

I'll throw my own two centavos in here. I completely agree with Kris and BluErf. These blades are continually being repaired and redressed and as long as it is done in the traditional style (or better yet within the same culture by their craftsmen using traditional methods) there is no loss of value or history only an increased esthetic. Who wouldn't want a complete blade with complete dress that showed the glory or the height of that culture in their collection as opposed to one with pieces missing.

I had Hajiri build me a new scabbard for my barong and rewrap the handle with silver braid, all the materials were from Sulu and he and his Grandfather did the work. It is a much more visually stunning blade now and better represents the true Tausug craftsmanship as opposed to the tail-less colored-ribbon wrapped scabbard it came in.

That doesn't negate my preference for an intact old piece, I just usually can't finance those

Dan

Battara · 20th May 2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

how about the color? would it match? it is indeed a beautiful junggayan.

The color would be a little difficult, but could be carefully worked to come close to the color. The grain would be the most difficult part by far.

Pangeran Datu · 4th June 2006, 03:35 PM

Hi All.
I apologise if any of you think that I'm flogging a dead horse. I just wanted to find out what you thought about the huge variation in prices for pieces. There is such a wide band. Especially when it comes to ivory pommels! The prices don't seem to follow any particular logic. In my travels, I've seen the same/similar pieces vary in price from a few hundred to almost a couple of thousands. There was even a hilt (only the hilt) with ivory kakatua pommel (not the full kakatua ceremonial form) priced at several thousands.
It may be useful to, at times, have posts about what 'reasonable' prices to pay are. People may be able to use it to build personal confidence in making offers/bids.

Regards.

Battara · 4th June 2006, 08:28 PM

Certainly eBay is not the most accurate indication of true value since it varies more than the auction houses. It would appear that several of us so far think that the pieces in question are way too high for their condition.

I could see that this price for the ivory one if it had a complete pommel and scabbard, and it were in perfect condition (gold work would be a great addition

).

Tim Simmons · 4th June 2006, 08:37 PM

Well I am baffled, they are far from rare, have no scabbards, okay one has a nice ivory pommel nothing rare about that and the other one is damaged, or am I blind to something.

Rick · 4th June 2006, 08:44 PM

It is a fascinating thing to compare the prices things fetch on ebay with what a similar piece will fetch at an auction house auction with bidders on the floor .
So far in my experience ebay auctions can often be the better value plus there is no "Buyer's Premium"

to tack another 15-20% on to the high bid price .

I often wonder if it is the heat of the moment on the auction floor that drives pieces to such heights whereas bidding on ebay is a solitary detached kind of experience .

I definitely would not have bid the price those fetched (unless I had a nice big chunk of ivory or two to send to Battara

)

29th April 2006, 10:18 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Whoa ! Moro Someone paid a handsome sum for these two basket cases ! Don't forget to add a 22.5% Buyers premium ! http://tinyurl.com/e9zmj

30th April 2006, 10:02 AM	#9
panday Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 50	Last edited by panday; 30th April 2006 at 02:52 PM.

30th April 2006, 04:22 PM	#16
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	. Attached Images

30th April 2006, 07:31 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These comments beg for a general question: Is it appropriate and desirable to perform extensive repair on the antiques that were damaged by age, use and (inevitably, as they are instruments of war) abuse? I am not trying to argue one way or another, but just want your opinions: if you get a great sword with a noticeably damaged handle and the damage is also obviously old, would you repair the damage to make it invisible even though the repair negates the history and the experience of the sword? Is it permissible to perform an extensive (and often expensive) cosmetic surgery on a weapon not in order to restore it's needed function but to superficially return it to the pristine state? Even more, would you further enhance the appearance, such as silver-cladding the handle, or attaching a junggayan handle to a great blade with an original but ordinary one? I am not talking about actual users who put a new handle on a sword to take it to battle (that goes without saying!) but about collectors who want to have a virginally- perfect sword on the wall. Last edited by ariel; 30th April 2006 at 08:37 PM.

30th April 2006, 08:14 PM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	The Opinion of a Kris/Keris Collector Hi Ariel , just my opinion but I think this can be quite a subjective question . In the case of the krisses under discussion I'm led to ask myself "What would the original owner do ?" ; in most cases I think that if the sword in its native environment was damaged to the point of the ivory pommel piece in question that either a repair , replacement or modification would be done . I would also think the same would apply to the kris without a pommel . Now this may be unique to the world of keris and kris ; but the heart and soul of these weapons is the blade regardless of Indo/Malay or Moro origin . In these cultures dress was and is replaced regularly as it aged or was damaged ; not to do so was considered disrespectful to the keris/kris itself . Often hilts would be removed and sold if the owner hit hard times ; then a less expensive hilt would be used . Now when these pieces wind up in Western hands in my opinion providing a quality repair or replacement can be done if it is in keeping with the culture . When it comes down to it the blade is the heart and soul of the keris/kris and is deserving of honor regardless of the culture it winds up in .

29th April 2006, 11:01 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Rick, Why do you call them "basket cases"? What are the problems with them? As you see, I still need handholding in the Moroland

29th April 2006, 11:29 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	The ivory junggayan pommel is broken ; the other sword is missing its pommel . The blade with the ivory pommel looks okay but the other one IMO only looks so-so . So this bidder paid well over $1,300.00 for two damaged krisses with no scabbards plus 5% sales tax . The only special thing about this pair , the ivory junggayan pommel , is broken and would be a tough and expensive repair . I don't think these two would fetch this price (including buyers premium ) on ebay .

30th April 2006, 01:44 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Yep ! Whoever that was hosed himself to the tune of almost $1,400.00 . I noticed all the sane people dropped out at about $600.00 ; even then too much . This auction house 'Buyer's Premium' stuff is getting way out of hand lately ; I'm surprised ebay hasn't had an effect on decreasing it .

30th April 2006, 02:30 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The ivory pommel kris has an impressive and nice sor-soran, with well-defined greneng which looks like to be of a more uncommon form. The pommel itself shows a good level of sophistication judging from what's left of it, and the shallow grooves and lines on it. I noticed that the baca-baca looks old and very sturdy. Perhaps the seller knows of someone who can restore the lost crown on the kakatua pommel, and perhaps make a sheath for it. Maybe that explains why he would pay so much for it. On another related subject - there has been a trend of person or persons who throw in irrationally high bids on kerises on ebay, and in some cases, not paying for the winning bids at all. This is not good. Hopefully the person or persons behind these irrational bidding would stop because it does not benefit anyone, including themselves.

30th April 2006, 04:03 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Or the seller....

30th April 2006, 10:26 AM	#10
panday Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 50	Ebay bidding wars now a days is so extream, and it's getting worse day by day! you got'ta push your self sometimes to get what you want, otherwise, you'll get dust When I bid, I make sure that I have the capacity to sustain that responsibility when it comes back at me, even to the max. As they say, good stuff are priceless! so eh! don't blame this guys if they want to add this priceless pieces on there collections. . . .blame the bug that bit them

30th April 2006, 12:14 PM	#11
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yeah, i was watching the live auction on that one. going back to the kris, is it even possible to fix the broken part of the pommel without it looking ovbious?

30th April 2006, 02:24 PM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	You know, i think that the ivory pommel kris is a fine looking weapon even with the damage.....but i think i wouldn't be willing to pay more than half that price for it. If it were mine i don't think i would try to restore such damage. I think it would be really difficult to make it look right without the original piece.

30th April 2006, 04:57 PM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	KNOWLEGABLE COLLECTORS AND ART COLLECTORS WHO DO IT FOR INVESTMENT OR TO IMPRESS PEOPLE ARE WORLDS APART. WHEN YOU SEE THE WORDS GALLERY, SOUTHBYS, OR CHRISTIES THE MAIN TARGET BUYERS GROUPS ARE THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY WHO WILL LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY A ITEM IS WORTH AND WHAT THEY PROJECT IT WILL BE WORTH SHORTLY AS A INVESTMENT. SO IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR SOMETHING TO SELL FOR MUCH MORE THAN WE WOULD PAY AS THEY HAVE SEEN THAT IT IS USUALLY APRAISED AT MORE THAN THEY END UP PAYING AND THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD HOW FAST THE PRICE IS RISING AND THAT IT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT INCREASING FASTER THAN GOLD, STOCKS OR ANY OTHER INVESTMENTS. IT WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO INCREASE BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAKEING ANY MORE AND THE TRIBES WILL SOON BE GONE FOREVER. IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT MANY OF THESE COLLECTOR/INVESTORS CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FACT IT SOLD AT SOUTHBYS OR CHRISTIES ECT. AND THAT THEY THINK IT WILL MAKE THEM LOADS OF MONEY THAN THEY DO ABOUT THE OBJECTS THEY BUY. THE BUG THAT EATS THEM IS MONEY NOT THE DESIRE TO HAVE , STUDY AND PRESERVE A UNIQUE ARTEFACT OF ANOTHER TIME AND PEOPLE AS IT IS WITH US. A GOOD THING IS SOME INVESTORS MAY GET BITTEN BY THE BUG THAT BIT US ALL IN THE PROCESS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS AND THEY GET THE KNOWLEGE AND CONECTIONS, OFTEN A TRULY GREAT COLLECTION COMES TOGETHER. WITH KNOWLEGE AND PLENTY OF CASH TO BUY ANYTHING YOU WANT YOU CAN PUT A COLLECTION TOGETHER THAT HAS ONLY THE BEST EXAMPLES. (I CAN ONLY DREAM ) IT IS VEXING TO SEE PRICES DRIVEN UP ON WHAT WE LOVE ESPECIALLY WHEN A DAMAGED ITEM BRINGS A PRICE THAT WOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN APPROPRIATE OR HIGH FOR ONE IN PERFECT CONDITION. BUT SNAKE OIL SALESMEN THESE DAYS ARE NEVER SATISFIED WITH THEIR GAINS NO MATTER WHAT PERCENT OF PROFIT THEY ARE MAKEING THEY ALWAYS WANT TO PUSH IT HIGHER.

30th April 2006, 08:42 PM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I think ariel touches on a very good point. What is restoration? Old damage can be seen as part of the objects life and may in some rare occasions add value. Repair to recent damage is problematic how far do you go? This piece presented a dilemma for me. It arrived with some damage then to rub salt into the wound I dropped it again, anyway a big chunk was missing, the damage was done! Do I leave it looking damaged and ugly or do something about it. I hope I have taken a middle road, what I have done is no worse than the damage. I have only hinted at how it would have been, I could very easily fake it up a lot more, I shall not say how. I am hoping to the future owners, the repair will also be older, will see it just as an honest attempt to keep a lovely thing looking nice and still feel good in the hand. I have others with the same kind of damage that is old and for some reason looks so very different and acceptable. Attached Images

30th April 2006, 10:29 PM	#21
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	For me, I feel that as long as the repair/replacement follows the traditional style of where the piece comes from, it is fine. This often entails the engagement of craftsmen who are from that culture.

30th April 2006, 10:32 PM	#22
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey Tim, that's a great repair. Maybe you want to stain the wood to match the original wood colour? Don't worry, people would still be able to see that it was repaired.

2nd May 2006, 01:55 AM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Ok folks, here I go (by request). I was one of the bidders for these puppies but dropped out. I was thinking of restoring them. I do agree that the money paid is toooooo much (though I haven't got that much anyway). I was looking at repairing the way Ian had suggested. Yes, pre-ban ivory is exensive, but for the money I was willing to spend (half of what was paid?) it would have evened out (especially after selling the other one). Who ever got it will be paying more than it is worth now (especially if any restoration is done). The hardest part would be matching the grain, and that can not be done perfectly anyway. Yes some trim to the original, or certainly there will be a break line no matter what. I can live with that if it were not too obvious. I will never know now....... The other one - new head and new wrap. (silver for me ).

19th May 2006, 07:59 AM	#25
D Wilke Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Okinawa, JN Posts: 22	Culturally correct repairs I'll throw my own two centavos in here. I completely agree with Kris and BluErf. These blades are continually being repaired and redressed and as long as it is done in the traditional style (or better yet within the same culture by their craftsmen using traditional methods) there is no loss of value or history only an increased esthetic. Who wouldn't want a complete blade with complete dress that showed the glory or the height of that culture in their collection as opposed to one with pieces missing. I had Hajiri build me a new scabbard for my barong and rewrap the handle with silver braid, all the materials were from Sulu and he and his Grandfather did the work. It is a much more visually stunning blade now and better represents the true Tausug craftsmanship as opposed to the tail-less colored-ribbon wrapped scabbard it came in. That doesn't negate my preference for an intact old piece, I just usually can't finance those Dan

4th June 2006, 03:35 PM	#27
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Kris price variation Hi All. I apologise if any of you think that I'm flogging a dead horse. I just wanted to find out what you thought about the huge variation in prices for pieces. There is such a wide band. Especially when it comes to ivory pommels! The prices don't seem to follow any particular logic. In my travels, I've seen the same/similar pieces vary in price from a few hundred to almost a couple of thousands. There was even a hilt (only the hilt) with ivory kakatua pommel (not the full kakatua ceremonial form) priced at several thousands. It may be useful to, at times, have posts about what 'reasonable' prices to pay are. People may be able to use it to build personal confidence in making offers/bids. Regards.

4th June 2006, 08:28 PM	#28
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Certainly eBay is not the most accurate indication of true value since it varies more than the auction houses. It would appear that several of us so far think that the pieces in question are way too high for their condition. I could see that this price for the ivory one if it had a complete pommel and scabbard, and it were in perfect condition (gold work would be a great addition ).

4th June 2006, 08:37 PM	#29
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Well I am baffled, they are far from rare, have no scabbards, okay one has a nice ivory pommel nothing rare about that and the other one is damaged, or am I blind to something.

4th June 2006, 08:44 PM	#30
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	It is a fascinating thing to compare the prices things fetch on ebay with what a similar piece will fetch at an auction house auction with bidders on the floor . So far in my experience ebay auctions can often be the better value plus there is no "Buyer's Premium" to tack another 15-20% on to the high bid price . I often wonder if it is the heat of the moment on the auction floor that drives pieces to such heights whereas bidding on ebay is a solitary detached kind of experience . I definitely would not have bid the price those fetched (unless I had a nice big chunk of ivory or two to send to Battara )