Too crude to be a Machete ?

fernando · 5th November 2023, 10:38 AM

I don't recall posting this one before; sorry if i did

.
Too basic to pretend that it is artificially old. Yet the previous owner (seller) gave it a strong clean up, as may be noticed. So pretty old it migh be.
I just don't abandon the idea that this might be a weapon and not just a tool, because of that clip point.
What do you Gentlemen think of this thing ?

.

Jim McDougall · 5th November 2023, 03:35 PM

Fernando, you are the master of bringing bizarre anomalies to 'show and tell' !

This 'item' is indeed 'crude' but 'too crude' for a machete, NOT. Most machetes are inherently crude as they are often fashioned from materials and components either handy to the village blacksmiths. Often repurposed blades and components might be used, but this is clearly locally forged.

Naturally this character is typical in so many of the tools, weapons etc. in Spanish colonial context, but of course, also in the rural regions in Portugal and Spain. Many of the 'cutlasses' used aboard vessels in the 17th-18th c. came from Basque field tools, i.e. machetes.

Actually, as we have often discussed, there is virtually little distinction between weapon and tool, and machetes are the classic example.

The well known 'espada ancha' of Spains colonies in the northern frontiers of Mexico was actually never called that, but what known for exactly what it was...a machete. While many used the dragoon blades from swords, it became well known that the heavier locally forged blades were better for their actual use, brushing trails etc.

Many of these blades locally made had a distinctive feature, which was actually 'uptick' at the blade tip. It would seem these had some sort of purpose in the utilitarian function of the machete, which I am not qualified to describe, however its presence was placed with purpose.

With that I would note the peculiar feature in the blade tip may have some remote association to the character of many machete blades.

The length of this blade @ over 30 inches gives it good length for effective use, and while the thin (2") width seems questionable with most machetes having wide, stout blades....a solid iron blade narrow would be easier to wield. The Cuban machetes known as guanabacoa have even narrower blades in some examples.

This is obviously excavated, and of considerable age, seeing the inner impurities of the iron working out through the surface in reaction to minerals in the soil or its deposit context.

fernando · 6th November 2023, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando, you are the master of bringing bizarre anomalies to 'show and tell' !
This 'item' is indeed 'crude' but 'too crude' for a machete, NOT...

Thanks much for your input, Jim; for both your comforting words on the machete and for the 'show and tell' attribution, a term i wasn't familiar with

.

Jim McDougall · 6th November 2023, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thanks much for your input, Jim; for both your comforting words on the machete and for the 'show and tell' attribution, a term i wasn't familiar with

.

Always my pleasure! and not intended as comfort, but matter of fact appreciation. 'Show and tell" refers to the event in school where kids brought in items of interest to display to the class, to their interest and excitement and all shared comments and questions. A great learning primer, which of course is similar to our much more seasoned efforts here

fernando · 6th November 2023, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...'Show and tell" refers to the event in school where kids brought in items of interest to display to the class ...

Yes Jim. It took me ten seconds flat to find its meaning soon as i first read it

.

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2023, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes Jim. It took me ten seconds flat to find its meaning soon as i first read it

.

Your note made me realize that sometimes the idioms I often use here might not be known to the international readers here, thus the elementary explanation. mea culpa.

kronckew · 8th November 2023, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The Cuban machetes known as guanabacoa have even narrower blades in some examples.
...

My examnple:

A 'narrow' Spanish military machete model 1881, made in Toledo 1895, a 'souvenir' of the Spanish-American war, used by the Spanish troops in Cuba.
slightly recurved.

Makes me think of Teddy Roosevelt & San Juan Hill...
Also, another spanish pioneer machete from the same era...

fernando · 8th November 2023, 10:58 AM

The Spanish pattern 1881, followed by the 1891 for the 'Ejercito de Cuba', were factory made side arms for regular forces. I am afraid that, although they are called Machetes, they certainly fall out the discussed context; perhaps belonging more into the Militaria area

.

Jim McDougall · 9th November 2023, 04:56 PM

Excellent and fascinating examples Wayne!
While of course spending most focus on historical swords and edged weapons of earlier times, these examples, though often deemed somewhat scornfully by many collectors of antique arms as 'militaria' have their own intrinsic value historically.

When I first began collecting as a young boy, I went into war surplus stores, WWII had been over barely a decade, and old military gear provided us with the camping equipment we used. There were old bayonets literally in barrels, and could be bought for 'loose change'......my exact 'budget'.

As I bought these, I became curious on the differences between the various forms, and nationalities etc. ........this was the root of my obsession with the study of edged weapons as I sought any references to identify them over the years.

I remember many years later, the late RDC Evans was writing articles solely on bayonets in an arms magazine, and I read this in amazement as he descriptively placed wonderful perspective on these common and ubiquitous arms. He became a good friend and remarkably, showed that a great deal of key information that pertained to markings etc. applied to swords, bringing new dimension to my appreciation of the larger scope of arms study.
I am not particularly drawn to guns, however I cannot describe the numbers of times I have found the clues and answers to questions regarding edged weapons in firearms references.

The Spanish American war was an intriguing conflict which provided the circumstances which brought resolution to many mysteries in the study of Spanish colonial edged weapons, with those of Cuba and connected as far as the Philippines. As Fernando notes, these factories were producing edged weapons for military forces, and often bayonets and 'machetes' fell into close association as the utilitarian function was typically most required.

No stone left unturned in serious arms study

fernando · 9th November 2023, 06:02 PM

You and your way, Jim. I appreciate listening to your collecting experiences during youth but, aren't we missing the point ? This topic, as submitted, being weaving considerations over artisanal machetes, is it within context comparing their variable specs. with a mass produced example like the 1881 military pattern ... whether you find it an excellent and fascinating example ?

PS
I later saw that you edited your post; sorry, too late !

5th November 2023, 10:38 AM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Too crude to be a Machete ? I don't recall posting this one before; sorry if i did . Too basic to pretend that it is artificially old. Yet the previous owner (seller) gave it a strong clean up, as may be noticed. So pretty old it migh be. I just don't abandon the idea that this might be a weapon and not just a tool, because of that clip point. What do you Gentlemen think of this thing ? . Attached Images

5th November 2023, 03:35 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Fernando, you are the master of bringing bizarre anomalies to 'show and tell' ! This 'item' is indeed 'crude' but 'too crude' for a machete, NOT. Most machetes are inherently crude as they are often fashioned from materials and components either handy to the village blacksmiths. Often repurposed blades and components might be used, but this is clearly locally forged. Naturally this character is typical in so many of the tools, weapons etc. in Spanish colonial context, but of course, also in the rural regions in Portugal and Spain. Many of the 'cutlasses' used aboard vessels in the 17th-18th c. came from Basque field tools, i.e. machetes. Actually, as we have often discussed, there is virtually little distinction between weapon and tool, and machetes are the classic example. The well known 'espada ancha' of Spains colonies in the northern frontiers of Mexico was actually never called that, but what known for exactly what it was...a machete. While many used the dragoon blades from swords, it became well known that the heavier locally forged blades were better for their actual use, brushing trails etc. Many of these blades locally made had a distinctive feature, which was actually 'uptick' at the blade tip. It would seem these had some sort of purpose in the utilitarian function of the machete, which I am not qualified to describe, however its presence was placed with purpose. With that I would note the peculiar feature in the blade tip may have some remote association to the character of many machete blades. The length of this blade @ over 30 inches gives it good length for effective use, and while the thin (2") width seems questionable with most machetes having wide, stout blades....a solid iron blade narrow would be easier to wield. The Cuban machetes known as guanabacoa have even narrower blades in some examples. This is obviously excavated, and of considerable age, seeing the inner impurities of the iron working out through the surface in reaction to minerals in the soil or its deposit context. Attached Images

8th November 2023, 10:58 AM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Machete ... ma non troppo. The Spanish pattern 1881, followed by the 1891 for the 'Ejercito de Cuba', were factory made side arms for regular forces. I am afraid that, although they are called Machetes, they certainly fall out the discussed context; perhaps belonging more into the Militaria area .

9th November 2023, 04:56 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Excellent and fascinating examples Wayne! While of course spending most focus on historical swords and edged weapons of earlier times, these examples, though often deemed somewhat scornfully by many collectors of antique arms as 'militaria' have their own intrinsic value historically. When I first began collecting as a young boy, I went into war surplus stores, WWII had been over barely a decade, and old military gear provided us with the camping equipment we used. There were old bayonets literally in barrels, and could be bought for 'loose change'......my exact 'budget'. As I bought these, I became curious on the differences between the various forms, and nationalities etc. ........this was the root of my obsession with the study of edged weapons as I sought any references to identify them over the years. I remember many years later, the late RDC Evans was writing articles solely on bayonets in an arms magazine, and I read this in amazement as he descriptively placed wonderful perspective on these common and ubiquitous arms. He became a good friend and remarkably, showed that a great deal of key information that pertained to markings etc. applied to swords, bringing new dimension to my appreciation of the larger scope of arms study. I am not particularly drawn to guns, however I cannot describe the numbers of times I have found the clues and answers to questions regarding edged weapons in firearms references. The Spanish American war was an intriguing conflict which provided the circumstances which brought resolution to many mysteries in the study of Spanish colonial edged weapons, with those of Cuba and connected as far as the Philippines. As Fernando notes, these factories were producing edged weapons for military forces, and often bayonets and 'machetes' fell into close association as the utilitarian function was typically most required. No stone left unturned in serious arms study Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th November 2023 at 05:09 PM.

9th November 2023, 06:02 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Wayne not minding ... You and your way, Jim. I appreciate listening to your collecting experiences during youth but, aren't we missing the point ? This topic, as submitted, being weaving considerations over artisanal machetes, is it within context comparing their variable specs. with a mass produced example like the 1881 military pattern ... whether you find it an excellent and fascinating example ? PS I later saw that you edited your post; sorry, too late !