WILKINSON CEREMONIAL SWORD

BANDOOK · 29th June 2016, 08:35 AM

PLEASE COULD SOME ONE BE ABLE TO DATE MY WILKINSON CEREMONIAL SWORD,WAS TOLD WAS MADE AROUND 1910 WHEN I BOUGHT IT ABOUT 10 YEARS BACK

Jim McDougall · 29th June 2016, 07:15 PM

This cavalry officers M1822 pattern was in use an incredibly long time, and was officially taken out of service in 1896. In 1912 the full bowl type officers swords for cavalry became regulation pattern.
However, officers had of course greater latitude in choice of weapons, and the larger 1912 hilt was a saddle mount sword, so for dress or parade these three bar hilts remained in use well into the 20th century.

The 1910 date seems reasonable, however I am puzzled by the stark nature of the forte marking. Usually Wilkinson swords had the surround and flourish with note of appointment as official makers to the monarch of the time.
Edward VII died in 1910, with George V becoming king that year, but does not seem that would cause departure from normal marking practice .

I don't have my references on British swords with me presently, so hopefully others can say more. I personally suspect this is a more modern production, and surprised the usual serialization is not present as well as more embellished blade motif.

BANDOOK · 30th June 2016, 12:06 PM

THANKS JIM FOR YOUR COMMENTS
THIS IS THE ONLY OTHER MARKING WHICH I SEE ON THE BACK EDGE JUST IN FRONT OF THE LEATHER WASHER SAYS
MADE IN ENGLAND
POSTING PICTURES FOR YOUR REFERNCE,SOMEONE WHO KNOWS MORE ABOUT ENGLISH AND WILKINSON SWORDS COULD TELL MORE
KIND REGARDS RAJESH

Richard G · 30th June 2016, 12:33 PM

Variations of the 1822 pattern sword continued, and are still the pattern, for Artillery officers and various other Corps, such as Logistics.
I believe Wikinson finally folded in 2005.
I also believe they made many swords based on British patterns for export.
Not much, but it might help.
Regards
Richard

thinreadline · 30th June 2016, 06:56 PM

I dont like to make pronouncements on weapons authenticity without having them in my hand. However the Wilkinson logo is not typical of that normally encountered , There should be a 'star with brass centre' proof mark on the ricasso and I would expect the blade to be decorated with foliar patterns Also ALL Wilkinson swords are numbered . A lot of copies of Wilkinson swords came out of India in the 1970s / 80s mostly retailed through a well known British firm in the Midlands.

Pictures of markings , numbering and decoration of a genuine sword of your pattern are given .

BANDOOK · 3rd July 2016, 09:50 AM

THIS IS ANOTHER WILKINSON SWORD WHICH IS A MODERN ONE MADE FOR THE SINGAPORE POLICE
THE TEMASEK SWORD OF THE SINGAPORE POLICE FORCE-MILLENNIUM EDITION
HAS LOT OF ORNATE WORK THROUGHOUT THE BLADE ON EITHER SIDES
REGARDS

BANDOOK · 3rd July 2016, 09:52 AM

SOME MORE PICTURES

kronckew · 3rd July 2016, 10:47 AM

did wilkinson make rat-tail tangs welded to a short wider tang like the 'singapore' above? compare the wilkinson markings on the real ones by others above, the singapore one looks like a poor etched copy. again no proof star & brass slug or serial no.s. the 'made in england' - did the real wilkinson ever put that on a blade?

Will M · 3rd July 2016, 04:42 PM

Wilkinson did stop using the proof disc for a cost saving measure, I don't have the date of this off hand. However Wilkinsons made swords other then their "best" having no proof disc as seen with this 1910 era sword.
You can still purchase copies of the 1831p mameluke sword with Wilkinson on the blade but these are made in China. The "Made in China" marking on the blade is very lightly acid etched in black onto the plating. The slightest touch to a buffing wheel would easily removes this.

BANDOOK · 5th July 2016, 10:48 AM

THANKS WILL M,ITS GOOD INFORMATION,HAVE HAD THIS SWORD FOR SOME TIME NOW,AND WAS FEELING BAD I BOUGHT A FAKE ONE,BUT THE INFO YOU PROVIDED HAS CHANGED MY THOUGHTS.I TOOK IT TO A LOCAL AUCTION HOUSE IN AUCKLAND WHICH SELLS LOTS OF MILITARIA AND THE EXPERT HAS CONFIRMED THAT ITS A GENUINE ONE AND THEY HAVE SOLD SUCH SWORDS IN THE PAST,AND ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO PUT IT IN THE NEXT MILITARIA AUCTIONS,WHICH I REFUSED,CHEERS

29th June 2016, 08:35 AM	#1
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	WILKINSON CEREMONIAL SWORD PLEASE COULD SOME ONE BE ABLE TO DATE MY WILKINSON CEREMONIAL SWORD,WAS TOLD WAS MADE AROUND 1910 WHEN I BOUGHT IT ABOUT 10 YEARS BACK Attached Images

30th June 2016, 12:06 PM	#3
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	THANKS JIM FOR YOUR COMMENTS THIS IS THE ONLY OTHER MARKING WHICH I SEE ON THE BACK EDGE JUST IN FRONT OF THE LEATHER WASHER SAYS MADE IN ENGLAND POSTING PICTURES FOR YOUR REFERNCE,SOMEONE WHO KNOWS MORE ABOUT ENGLISH AND WILKINSON SWORDS COULD TELL MORE KIND REGARDS RAJESH Attached Images

30th June 2016, 06:56 PM	#5
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	I dont like to make pronouncements on weapons authenticity without having them in my hand. However the Wilkinson logo is not typical of that normally encountered , There should be a 'star with brass centre' proof mark on the ricasso and I would expect the blade to be decorated with foliar patterns Also ALL Wilkinson swords are numbered . A lot of copies of Wilkinson swords came out of India in the 1970s / 80s mostly retailed through a well known British firm in the Midlands. Pictures of markings , numbering and decoration of a genuine sword of your pattern are given . Attached Images Last edited by thinreadline; 1st July 2016 at 12:23 AM.

3rd July 2016, 09:50 AM	#6
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	ANOTHER WILKINOSN IN MY COLLECTION THIS IS ANOTHER WILKINSON SWORD WHICH IS A MODERN ONE MADE FOR THE SINGAPORE POLICE THE TEMASEK SWORD OF THE SINGAPORE POLICE FORCE-MILLENNIUM EDITION HAS LOT OF ORNATE WORK THROUGHOUT THE BLADE ON EITHER SIDES REGARDS Attached Images

3rd July 2016, 09:52 AM	#7
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	SOME MORE PICTURES Attached Images

29th June 2016, 07:15 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	This cavalry officers M1822 pattern was in use an incredibly long time, and was officially taken out of service in 1896. In 1912 the full bowl type officers swords for cavalry became regulation pattern. However, officers had of course greater latitude in choice of weapons, and the larger 1912 hilt was a saddle mount sword, so for dress or parade these three bar hilts remained in use well into the 20th century. The 1910 date seems reasonable, however I am puzzled by the stark nature of the forte marking. Usually Wilkinson swords had the surround and flourish with note of appointment as official makers to the monarch of the time. Edward VII died in 1910, with George V becoming king that year, but does not seem that would cause departure from normal marking practice . I don't have my references on British swords with me presently, so hopefully others can say more. I personally suspect this is a more modern production, and surprised the usual serialization is not present as well as more embellished blade motif.

30th June 2016, 12:33 PM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 405	Variations of the 1822 pattern sword continued, and are still the pattern, for Artillery officers and various other Corps, such as Logistics. I believe Wikinson finally folded in 2005. I also believe they made many swords based on British patterns for export. Not much, but it might help. Regards Richard

3rd July 2016, 10:47 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	did wilkinson make rat-tail tangs welded to a short wider tang like the 'singapore' above? compare the wilkinson markings on the real ones by others above, the singapore one looks like a poor etched copy. again no proof star & brass slug or serial no.s. the 'made in england' - did the real wilkinson ever put that on a blade?

3rd July 2016, 04:42 PM	#9
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Wilkinson did stop using the proof disc for a cost saving measure, I don't have the date of this off hand. However Wilkinsons made swords other then their "best" having no proof disc as seen with this 1910 era sword. You can still purchase copies of the 1831p mameluke sword with Wilkinson on the blade but these are made in China. The "Made in China" marking on the blade is very lightly acid etched in black onto the plating. The slightest touch to a buffing wheel would easily removes this.

5th July 2016, 10:48 AM	#10
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	THANKS WILL M,ITS GOOD INFORMATION,HAVE HAD THIS SWORD FOR SOME TIME NOW,AND WAS FEELING BAD I BOUGHT A FAKE ONE,BUT THE INFO YOU PROVIDED HAS CHANGED MY THOUGHTS.I TOOK IT TO A LOCAL AUCTION HOUSE IN AUCKLAND WHICH SELLS LOTS OF MILITARIA AND THE EXPERT HAS CONFIRMED THAT ITS A GENUINE ONE AND THEY HAVE SOLD SUCH SWORDS IN THE PAST,AND ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO PUT IT IN THE NEXT MILITARIA AUCTIONS,WHICH I REFUSED,CHEERS