Keris holder for comment

Atlantia · 23rd June 2012, 10:56 PM

Gentlemen, although my knowledge of Keris is almost nothing, I was given the opportunity to select several interesting Keris and holders from a large and established old collection.

As I say, my knowledge is next to nil, so I won't be offended if you explain in simple newbie terms

Here is one of the holders, he is 55cm tall:

Sajen · 23rd June 2012, 11:59 PM

Hello mate,

it is from Bali and look very nice, a good one!

Is it from heavy or light wood?

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello mate,

it is from Bali and look very nice, a good one!

Is it from heavy or light wood?

Regards,

Detlef

Hey Buddy

He's 55cm tall and weighs around 2.6kg, quite heavy?

He has an open gripping hand as is usual, but it's quite a small diameter hole. Are these used to hold other weapons apart from Keris?

I've not seen one like him before, do you recognise him or know who he represents?

Best
Gene

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 04:49 AM

Hello, I think the character is Bhima, perhaps it is meant to hold just the lower end (like 1/3 or so) of the sheath?

Rick · 24th June 2012, 07:58 AM

Also, he might be of Javanese origin .

The figure seems a bit restrained for Bali .

For reference check out Javanese Wayang masks ...

Why do you think he is Bima ?

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2012, 09:49 AM

No, not Jawa Rick, they don't do these things, its Bali, but souvenir quality, the wood is quite light, which means it will be soft. I've got a shorter one of the same style that weighs 6kg. It probably dates from the 1980-1990 period.

Don't know who it is. Probably impossible to tell. Balinese carvers, especially when doing souvenir work tend to carve to a category of character rather than to an individual character. This bloke has got certain attributes that the more inquisitive amongst us might care to research, such as the snake around the neck, the unusually dark skin, the hair style, but in my experience this is probably a waste of time, because these attributes are very likely to be mix and match stuff. Carvings like this are done for visitors to take home without being too far into excess baggage debt, they are not done to exacting requirements of religion or wayang.

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello, I think the character is Bhima, perhaps it is meant to hold just the lower end (like 1/3 or so) of the sheath?

Hi Tunggulametung,

Bhima? Ah fantastic thank you! Legendary warrior with an equally legendary moustache, he makes a good subject for a Keris stand.)
His grip is quite small, were these ever made to hold weapons other than Keris?

Thanks
Gene

Jean · 24th June 2012, 10:25 AM

Hi Gene,
Attached is the picture of a similar Balinese holder made from hard wood, it is 60 cm tall and weights 4.5 kg. It is said to depict Bima (moustache, fierce look, long thumbnails). It has a large grip opening and is probably older than yours.
I also attach the pictures of 2 smaller holders which are Javanese I think.
Best regards
Jean

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, not Jawa Rick, they don't do these things, its Bali, but souvenir quality, the wood is quite light, which means it will be soft. I've got a shorter one of the same style that weighs 6kg. It probably dates from the 1980-1990 period.

Don't know who it is. Probably impossible to tell. Balinese carvers, especially when doing souvenir work tend to carve to a category of character rather than to an individual character. This bloke has got certain attributes that the more inquisitive amongst us might care to research, such as the snake around the neck, the unusually dark skin, the hair style, but in my experience this is probably a waste of time, because these attributes are very likely to be mix and match stuff. Carvings like this are done for visitors to take home without being too far into excess baggage debt, they are not done to exacting requirements of religion or wayang.

Most of this collection seems to have been put together around WW2 and the next few decades. There were many pieces that date to the 1940s which were clearly bought 'new' and still look 'new' now.
He seemed to have a wide interest, buying some of the pieces 'brand new', some old and some already antique when collected.
I'm not sure when his collecting stopped but I'd guess around the end of the 70s (From the little I know of the source and the examination of parts of the collection) So I would say that beyond 1980 would be unusually late in context, but anything's possible of course.
These come directly from the original collectors family with his descriptions where possible. This one was described as being: 'Indonesia C.1920'

I personally thought that was rather hopeful

and 'guessed' that it was more likely 1960s-70s.
Amazing how even a few decades makes a world of difference in the effort on these pieces. The quality of this one is actually rather good compared with many of the 'new' ones being offered, and yet compared with earlier ones it looks simple and nieve.
Tunggulametung's attribution of Bhima seems reasonable, he certainly looks like Bhima.

Nice large base with corresponding sturdy balance and low centre of gravity.

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi Gene,
Attached is the picture of a similar Balinese holder made from hard wood, it is 60 cm tall and weights 4.5 kg. It is said to depict Bima (moustache, fierce look, long thumbnails). It has a large grip opening and is probably older than yours.
I also attach the pictures of 2 smaller holders which are Javanese I think.
Best regards
Jean

Excellent thank you Jean.
I think that settles it, he is Bhima

And a fine moustache it is too!

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2012, 03:03 PM

The reason I guessed 1980-1990's is because during that time span Hardiono set up a store in Kuta-Legian under the managership of his niece, and they had an extremely large number of these souvenir keris holders produced. Actually, this could be narrowed to probably 1985-1995. Prior to that I didn't see much between about 1970 and when Hardiono's stuff started to be sold, older keris holders very often have a square base rather than a round base, and keris holders produced for local consumption are carved from hardwood, rather than softwood. During the 1960's and 1970's Bali was still very much unaffected by tourism, yes, there were tourists there, there had been since the 1930's, but the carving centres around Mas and Ubud had not really begun to produce the vast quantities of souvenir quality items.
A keris holder that was produced in the era prior to 1970 could be expected to utilize hardwood, to have a square base, and to have a hole large enough to accept a keris rather than an umbrella, additionally it was more likely to have the rather flat, dull paint used in traditional Balinese carvings, rather than the high-gloss paint that this one appears to have --- still, anything is possible. Collectors usually base their attributions of age upon what they are told by the people they buy from.

In respect of the nomination of Bhima as a candidate. Bhima has more than a single characterisation, we have Bhima or Werkudara, then there is Bratasena (Bhima as a young man), then Bhima Wanda Mimis, Bhima Wanda Lintang --- it goes on. Things are never as simple as we might like them to be. Bhima as Bratasena is often characterised with a snake, and the face of this keris holder has the Balinese characterisation of a warrior's eyes, the waist is small, as Bhima's waist should be, essentially Bhima should be depicted as an athlete, and his defining attribute is the thumbnail, something I cannot see in this keris holder. Still, it could be intended to be Bhima, but is more likely to be a warrior characterisation including some Bhima-like characteristics.

For a better understanding of the way in which the Balinese use characterisation in their art, I suggest a reading of "The Art and Culture of Bali"--- Urs Ramseyer might not go astray. For some guidance on the characteristics of wayang characters, "Rupa & Karakter Wayang Purwa"--- Heru Sujarwo is an excellent source.

Once we have some understanding of the way in which Balinese artists interpret their subject we find that it is not difficult to identify a class of character, for instance, this keris holder statue is obviously a warrior, a brave man but rather coarse, however which specific warrior is never easy to determine, and often depends upon context.

Gene, regarding the quality of Balinese carving. It has not deteriorated. In fact it has improved consistently since the Balinese realised that there was a market for it, and they absorbed the influence of European artists who lived amongst them, commencing well before WWII. But its the old story of we get what we pay for. Very good carving costs very good money, and people who just want a souvenir are usually not prepared to pay much. Because of this much of the Balinese carving that we see in the western world is not really of very good quality.

Jean, the man sitting is Javanese, I've seen a lot of these that were done in Jogja, and this is a typically Javanese style, however I'm not sure about the figure on the rather thin square base, I think from what I can see that it is probably Balinese. These keris holders did not have a place in Javanese society, but they did in Balinese society; I've never seen an old Javanese holder of this style, only new ones done for collectors.

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 04:08 PM

Bima (wayang) character is rather easy to recognize, at least for me personally. Balinese interpretation of Bima for comparison attached (random internet photos). I'm sorry I do not know whether it is also intended for other weapon or not, maybe not all Balinese keris are as big as we thought (not that showy pawiwahan keris), at least I often see small keris comparable to keris selit in Malay term being worn on perang pandan ceremony.

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2012, 04:17 PM

In recent times many Balinese men wear Javanese and other keris to ceremonies because there are simply not enough Balinese keris to go around, and many of the current generation do not own their own keris, so they use whatever they can get, I suspect dress keris owned by their banjar and lent for the ceremony.

Lousy pic and I apologise for it --- digitised from film shot on a p&s --- hopefully you can make out the keris the men are wearing, Javanese. This was Hari Nyepi 2007.

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 04:33 PM

The possibility is endless but my point is not all keris Bali (approximately) uniform in size like one size fits all (person, occasion, etc). I think the attached example is about equal to Solo pendok size.

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The reason I guessed 1980-1990's is because during that time span Hardiono set up a store in Kuta-Legian under the managership of his niece, and they had an extremely large number of these souvenir keris holders produced. Actually, this could be narrowed to probably 1985-1995. Prior to that I didn't see much between about 1970 and when Hardiono's stuff started to be sold, older keris holders very often have a square base rather than a round base, and keris holders produced for local consumption are carved from hardwood, rather than softwood. During the 1960's and 1970's Bali was still very much unaffected by tourism, yes, there were tourists there, there had been since the 1930's, but the carving centres around Mas and Ubud had not really begun to produce the vast quantities of souvenir quality items.
A keris holder that was produced in the era prior to 1970 could be expected to utilize hardwood, to have a square base, and to have a hole large enough to accept a keris rather than an umbrella, additionally it was more likely to have the rather flat, dull paint used in traditional Balinese carvings, rather than the high-gloss paint that this one appears to have --- still, anything is possible. Collectors usually base their attributions of age upon what they are told by the people they buy from.

In respect of the nomination of Bhima as a candidate. Bhima has more than a single characterisation, we have Bhima or Werkudara, then there is Bratasena (Bhima as a young man), then Bhima Wanda Mimis, Bhima Wanda Lintang --- it goes on. Things are never as simple as we might like them to be. Bhima as Bratasena is often characterised with a snake, and the face of this keris holder has the Balinese characterisation of a warrior's eyes, the waist is small, as Bhima's waist should be, essentially Bhima should be depicted as an athlete, and his defining attribute is the thumbnail, something I cannot see in this keris holder. Still, it could be intended to be Bhima, but is more likely to be a warrior characterisation including some Bhima-like characteristics.

For a better understanding of the way in which the Balinese use characterisation in their art, I suggest a reading of "The Art and Culture of Bali"--- Urs Ramseyer might not go astray. For some guidance on the characteristics of wayang characters, "Rupa & Karakter Wayang Purwa"--- Heru Sujarwo is an excellent source.

Once we have some understanding of the way in which Balinese artists interpret their subject we find that it is not difficult to identify a class of character, for instance, this keris holder statue is obviously a warrior, a brave man but rather coarse, however which specific warrior is never easy to determine, and often depends upon context.

Gene, regarding the quality of Balinese carving. It has not deteriorated. In fact it has improved consistently since the Balinese realised that there was a market for it, and they absorbed the influence of European artists who lived amongst them, commencing well before WWII. But its the old story of we get what we pay for. Very good carving costs very good money, and people who just want a souvenir are usually not prepared to pay much. Because of this much of the Balinese carving that we see in the western world is not really of very good quality.

Jean, the man sitting is Javanese, I've seen a lot of these that were done in Jogja, and this is a typically Javanese style, however I'm not sure about the figure on the rather thin square base, I think from what I can see that it is probably Balinese. These keris holders did not have a place in Javanese society, but they did in Balinese society; I've never seen an old Javanese holder of this style, only new ones done for collectors.

Hi Alan,

He has a 'wrestlers' build

Here's his thumbnail and some head shots to show his other attributes.
I'm not sure of the exact year that the chap who collected him 'migrated' back to Holland. As I say, from the things I've seen in his collection and what I know of him was under the impression it was prior to/around 1980, but it's not that importnat TBH. The keris holder is a great thing of better quality than most I see offered on certain auction sites so I'm happy to have it and more interested in attributing it's design.
Now I have a few, I'll be working on a theme for an area of the lounge today!

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Bima (wayang) character is rather easy to recognize, at least for me personally. Balinese interpretation of Bima for comparison attached (random internet photos). I'm sorry I do not know whether it is also intended for other weapon or not, maybe not all Balinese keris are as big as we thought (not that showy pawiwahan keris), at least I often see small keris comparable to keris selit in Malay term being worn on perang pandan ceremony.

Thanks Tunggulametung,
I don't think there is any doubt at all that my figure is the same person shown in your examples.
All the attributes seeem to be identical. Thumbnail, moustache, skin colour, hairstyle, costume, fierce expression, snake garland, even the black and white chequered sarong. So if those are Bima, then so is mine.
Thank you for your help, I'm very pleased to know who he is.

Best
Gene

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 06:08 PM

You're welcome Gene. Maybe not a masterpiece but it is better than average as you mention

, I think the carver are more than able to do it better (refined) indicated by how he do the face/expression which as far as I know the most difficult part, but for some reasons that is not something he pursue (sometimes the selling price expected is just the same

). Congratulations for the nice keris holder.

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi Gene,
Attached is the picture of a similar Balinese holder made from hard wood, it is 60 cm tall and weights 4.5 kg. It is said to depict Bima (moustache, fierce look, long thumbnails). It has a large grip opening and is probably older than yours.
.........................................
Jean

Jean, I think yours could be Bayu, father of Bima.

Sajen · 24th June 2012, 06:22 PM

Hi Gene,

agree with the others that it seems that your keris holder is rather recent, this was the reason why I ask for the weight. So most old ones I have seenand handled have been very heavy. And the small hole is an indicator as well for this. But still a nice piece for presentation a small Bali keris.

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Jean, I think yours could be Bayu, father of Bima.

Ah, that's interesting. What distinguishes father from son?

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Ah, that's interesting. What distinguishes father from son?

Visually? I think the easiest way to tell is the hairdo (gelung-Javanese term), I'm not wayang expert so I can't name the details but Bima has a warrior hairdo while Bayu is god that has batara hairdo. It is very complex but if you google for gelung and other attribute in a few days you might know better than I do

. Here are two random site to get started (Javanese wayang):
link 1
link 2

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gene,

agree with the others that it seems that your keris holder is rather recent, this was the reason why I ask for the weight. So most old ones I have seenand handled have been very heavy. And the small hole is an indicator as well for this. But still a nice piece for presentation a small Bali keris.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

I agree on the age. Well within a few years or so of Alans estimates, but it's not important as it's not antique 70s/80s

It's a very decorative item, I'm rather pleased with it. I might even show you my others

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

You're welcome Gene. Maybe not a masterpiece but it is better than average as you mention

, I think the carver are more than able to do it better (refined) indicated by how he do the face/expression which as far as I know the most difficult part, but for some reasons that is not something he pursue (sometimes the selling price expected is just the same

). Congratulations for the nice keris holder.

Thats it precisely. No great age but quite well done and great fun to have as part of a display. Which is where he is destined to be. I'll sort through my keris and find a slender one to fit his hand. He'll be happy then.

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Visually? I think the easiest way to tell is the hairdo (gelung-Javanese term), I'm not wayang expert so I can't name the details but Bima has a warrior hairdo while Bayu is god that has batara hairdo. It is very complex but if you google for gelung and other attribute in a few days you might know better than I do

. Here are two random site to get started (Javanese wayang):
link 1
link 2

Hmmm, what do you think?

tunggulametung · 24th June 2012, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hmmm, what do you think?

Yes kind of. But we are borrowing Javanese term here, there might be a Balinese name for that but I believe it is harder to find, perhaps others can name a good book on Balinese wayang. Incidentally, the reference that you use is Gatotkaca, son of Bima

. Specific to the particular gelung, in Java it is connected while in Bali is disconnected (your keris holder is not incomplete/with defect).

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Yes kind of. But we are borrowing Javanese term here, there might be a Balinese name for that but I believe it is harder to find, perhaps others can name a good book on Balinese wayang. Incidentally, the reference that you use is Gatotkaca, son of Bima

. Specific to the particular gelung, in Java it is connected while in Bali is disconnected (your keris holder is not incomplete/with defect).

So what do you think? Mine seems to have all the attributes of Bhima from what I can gather from searching images on google?

Even the snake around his neck.

Atlantia · 24th June 2012, 08:07 PM

I also have a Twalen figure of I would imagine similar age.
I think everyone has a Twalen or two?

sirek · 24th June 2012, 09:46 PM

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirek

LOL, couple of Twalens, couple of Hanuman....

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2012, 12:43 AM

Tunggalametung, I don't think we should use the word "gelung" to describe a warrior's hairstyle. "Gelung" is ngoko for the traditional Javanese women's hairstyle, it is modified by:- gelung kondhe , the everyday style with the bun at the back; gelung boko, which is for ceremonies and special events; gelung supit urang, with a little bun on each side of the head; gelung tekuk, generic for special hairstyles.

No, I'm not a hairdresser. I knew that "gelung" was for women, and when I checked my memory before I posted I found all these other hairstyles.

On the subject of Bali keris size, historically --- and I'm going way, way back --- keris size related to hierarchical position:- big keris : high position. Very old Balinese keris can be quite small, you're absolutely right, not all Bali keris are big.

Gene

Thanks for the close ups. Yes, definite tendency towards Bhima, I agree that this character was probably intended, Bhima Bratasena.

Additionally, your close ups show the paint work better, and I tend to think it could be a little older than my first estimate, however, that light wood is a dead give away, it cannot be other than a souvenir with wood like that.

23rd June 2012, 10:56 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Keris holder for comment Gentlemen, although my knowledge of Keris is almost nothing, I was given the opportunity to select several interesting Keris and holders from a large and established old collection. As I say, my knowledge is next to nil, so I won't be offended if you explain in simple newbie terms Here is one of the holders, he is 55cm tall: Attached Images

24th June 2012, 10:25 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hi Gene, Attached is the picture of a similar Balinese holder made from hard wood, it is 60 cm tall and weights 4.5 kg. It is said to depict Bima (moustache, fierce look, long thumbnails). It has a large grip opening and is probably older than yours. I also attach the pictures of 2 smaller holders which are Javanese I think. Best regards Jean Attached Images

24th June 2012, 04:08 PM	#12
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Bima (wayang) character is rather easy to recognize, at least for me personally. Balinese interpretation of Bima for comparison attached (random internet photos). I'm sorry I do not know whether it is also intended for other weapon or not, maybe not all Balinese keris are as big as we thought (not that showy pawiwahan keris), at least I often see small keris comparable to keris selit in Malay term being worn on perang pandan ceremony. Attached Images

24th June 2012, 04:17 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	In recent times many Balinese men wear Javanese and other keris to ceremonies because there are simply not enough Balinese keris to go around, and many of the current generation do not own their own keris, so they use whatever they can get, I suspect dress keris owned by their banjar and lent for the ceremony. Lousy pic and I apologise for it --- digitised from film shot on a p&s --- hopefully you can make out the keris the men are wearing, Javanese. This was Hari Nyepi 2007. Attached Images

24th June 2012, 04:33 PM	#14
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	The possibility is endless but my point is not all keris Bali (approximately) uniform in size like one size fits all (person, occasion, etc). I think the attached example is about equal to Solo pendok size. Attached Images

23rd June 2012, 11:59 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello mate, it is from Bali and look very nice, a good one! Is it from heavy or light wood? Regards, Detlef

24th June 2012, 04:49 AM	#4
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello, I think the character is Bhima, perhaps it is meant to hold just the lower end (like 1/3 or so) of the sheath?

24th June 2012, 07:58 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Also, he might be of Javanese origin . The figure seems a bit restrained for Bali . For reference check out Javanese Wayang masks ... Why do you think he is Bima ?

24th June 2012, 09:49 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	No, not Jawa Rick, they don't do these things, its Bali, but souvenir quality, the wood is quite light, which means it will be soft. I've got a shorter one of the same style that weighs 6kg. It probably dates from the 1980-1990 period. Don't know who it is. Probably impossible to tell. Balinese carvers, especially when doing souvenir work tend to carve to a category of character rather than to an individual character. This bloke has got certain attributes that the more inquisitive amongst us might care to research, such as the snake around the neck, the unusually dark skin, the hair style, but in my experience this is probably a waste of time, because these attributes are very likely to be mix and match stuff. Carvings like this are done for visitors to take home without being too far into excess baggage debt, they are not done to exacting requirements of religion or wayang.

24th June 2012, 03:03 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	The reason I guessed 1980-1990's is because during that time span Hardiono set up a store in Kuta-Legian under the managership of his niece, and they had an extremely large number of these souvenir keris holders produced. Actually, this could be narrowed to probably 1985-1995. Prior to that I didn't see much between about 1970 and when Hardiono's stuff started to be sold, older keris holders very often have a square base rather than a round base, and keris holders produced for local consumption are carved from hardwood, rather than softwood. During the 1960's and 1970's Bali was still very much unaffected by tourism, yes, there were tourists there, there had been since the 1930's, but the carving centres around Mas and Ubud had not really begun to produce the vast quantities of souvenir quality items. A keris holder that was produced in the era prior to 1970 could be expected to utilize hardwood, to have a square base, and to have a hole large enough to accept a keris rather than an umbrella, additionally it was more likely to have the rather flat, dull paint used in traditional Balinese carvings, rather than the high-gloss paint that this one appears to have --- still, anything is possible. Collectors usually base their attributions of age upon what they are told by the people they buy from. In respect of the nomination of Bhima as a candidate. Bhima has more than a single characterisation, we have Bhima or Werkudara, then there is Bratasena (Bhima as a young man), then Bhima Wanda Mimis, Bhima Wanda Lintang --- it goes on. Things are never as simple as we might like them to be. Bhima as Bratasena is often characterised with a snake, and the face of this keris holder has the Balinese characterisation of a warrior's eyes, the waist is small, as Bhima's waist should be, essentially Bhima should be depicted as an athlete, and his defining attribute is the thumbnail, something I cannot see in this keris holder. Still, it could be intended to be Bhima, but is more likely to be a warrior characterisation including some Bhima-like characteristics. For a better understanding of the way in which the Balinese use characterisation in their art, I suggest a reading of "The Art and Culture of Bali"--- Urs Ramseyer might not go astray. For some guidance on the characteristics of wayang characters, "Rupa & Karakter Wayang Purwa"--- Heru Sujarwo is an excellent source. Once we have some understanding of the way in which Balinese artists interpret their subject we find that it is not difficult to identify a class of character, for instance, this keris holder statue is obviously a warrior, a brave man but rather coarse, however which specific warrior is never easy to determine, and often depends upon context. Gene, regarding the quality of Balinese carving. It has not deteriorated. In fact it has improved consistently since the Balinese realised that there was a market for it, and they absorbed the influence of European artists who lived amongst them, commencing well before WWII. But its the old story of we get what we pay for. Very good carving costs very good money, and people who just want a souvenir are usually not prepared to pay much. Because of this much of the Balinese carving that we see in the western world is not really of very good quality. Jean, the man sitting is Javanese, I've seen a lot of these that were done in Jogja, and this is a typically Javanese style, however I'm not sure about the figure on the rather thin square base, I think from what I can see that it is probably Balinese. These keris holders did not have a place in Javanese society, but they did in Balinese society; I've never seen an old Javanese holder of this style, only new ones done for collectors.

24th June 2012, 06:08 PM	#17
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	You're welcome Gene. Maybe not a masterpiece but it is better than average as you mention , I think the carver are more than able to do it better (refined) indicated by how he do the face/expression which as far as I know the most difficult part, but for some reasons that is not something he pursue (sometimes the selling price expected is just the same ). Congratulations for the nice keris holder.

24th June 2012, 06:22 PM	#19
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hi Gene, agree with the others that it seems that your keris holder is rather recent, this was the reason why I ask for the weight. So most old ones I have seenand handled have been very heavy. And the small hole is an indicator as well for this. But still a nice piece for presentation a small Bali keris. Regards, Detlef

24th June 2012, 08:07 PM	#27
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I also have a Twalen figure of I would imagine similar age. I think everyone has a Twalen or two? Attached Images

24th June 2012, 09:46 PM	#28
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 169	Attached Images

25th June 2012, 12:43 AM	#30
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Tunggalametung, I don't think we should use the word "gelung" to describe a warrior's hairstyle. "Gelung" is ngoko for the traditional Javanese women's hairstyle, it is modified by:- gelung kondhe , the everyday style with the bun at the back; gelung boko, which is for ceremonies and special events; gelung supit urang, with a little bun on each side of the head; gelung tekuk, generic for special hairstyles. No, I'm not a hairdresser. I knew that "gelung" was for women, and when I checked my memory before I posted I found all these other hairstyles. On the subject of Bali keris size, historically --- and I'm going way, way back --- keris size related to hierarchical position:- big keris : high position. Very old Balinese keris can be quite small, you're absolutely right, not all Bali keris are big. Gene Thanks for the close ups. Yes, definite tendency towards Bhima, I agree that this character was probably intended, Bhima Bratasena. Additionally, your close ups show the paint work better, and I tend to think it could be a little older than my first estimate, however, that light wood is a dead give away, it cannot be other than a souvenir with wood like that.