Dao ?

thomas hauschild · 23rd May 2017, 07:55 PM

From my collection a Dao (?)

66 cm blade, total 81 cm. The blade starts with a thickness of 7 mm at the guard and is forged down continuisly to 0 to the tip. The last 15 cm are below 2 mm thickness. Deep hollows are making the blade very light. The sweep point is something around 20 cm behind the tip ( I put a finger on it were my feeling of the sweep point is )

The scabbard has an overlay of stingray rawhide, the grip too. The fittings are made of casted (?) brass (?) . The most impression in my opinion is feeling of the balance. Its a pitty that picture will not be able to show this ;-) .

Best thomas

Ian · 24th May 2017, 01:46 AM

Hi Thomas:

Another nice sword. From the wear on the shagreen hilt and scabbard, I would think this sword is from the second half of the 19th C or early 20th C. Would that fit with your estimate of its age? The cast brass fittings might be newer.

I have difficulty judging when these swords were made, given that there are so many modern reproductions that are often artificially "aged."

Ian.

Philip · 1st June 2017, 08:48 AM

Blade could quite possibly have some age to it, maybe well back into the 19th cent. I've seen similar elsewhere that were also convincing.

Fittings are another matter. Rayskin is brand spanking new. The irregular patchwork assembly of panels, and mismatched colors on the scabbard are not historical, it's a recent, amateur restoration. Grip is rather fresh-looking for something that would have seen a lot of handling (and with the blade looking like it's been round the block a good many times.)

The base of the pommel, which has a straight and not concave contour, is characteristic of a lot of new work. The relief deco on it, and on the guard, are rather crisp considering that these are areas that see wear from handling, and often get bumped and bruised from handling and combat, and from banging against things when the saber is worn at the belt.

There is a tendency in the antiques trade in China today to remount old(er) blades in new fittings to make them complete and more saleable. Unfortunately this is the impression generated by this example.

thomas hauschild · 1st June 2017, 06:43 PM

Dear Philip

Yes I completly agree with you. All of this was my first impression too. I have bought this piece just because of the feeling of the balance of the blade. As a knifesmith my focus is on the blades. This one is thinner and more balanced as I have found on modern stockremoval blades with normaly heavy and constant thickness.

I often took part as a exibitor on the bladeshow in the Klingenmuseum Solingen. I was very happy to the possipility to take some swords of Peter Johnsson in my hand. His work is incredible and gives a good impression of how the balance of a blade should be. So I collect (hopefully) antique blades to study them and to learn for my own work. I´m happy just with the information that this piece is possibly an antique blade.

Best regards thomas

Philip · 1st June 2017, 11:58 PM

Dear Thomas,
I am glad to hear of your work. Peter Johnsson is a man of really original thinking, have you read his article "One Single Wholeness of Things -- the Geometry of Medieval Swords in the Wallace collection" in T. Capwell (ed.) THE NOBLE ART OF THE SWORD (London: Wallace 2012)? Yes, I agree that handling the weapons to determine how their dimensions affect their balance in the hand is essential for understanding. Too many collectors and writers think they know all about a piece from merely looking at it, and thus we have misleading info in books, and historicism which has no basis in reality. This is especially true in the area of oriental and ethnographic weapons, in which a lot of people seemed focused on superficial things like decoration.

Back to your saber, at least we know the blade is most likely "right" (this I say from images alone). Would be interesting to polish a section of it to determine the layering structure and heat treat. I have done it on a number of Chinese, Korean, and Indochinese blades and the results can be quite striking on the better examples, especially 18th cent. and previous work.

Regarding the fittings on your piece, one can say that they are most likely a historicism in the style of the period ca. 1750 until the end of the Qing in the early 20th cent. The fashion is called "yuanshi" or rounded style, because of the elliptical section of the hilt and scabbard, the flattened globular pommel, and the rounded chape of the scabbard. These elements start to appear in the regulations for court regalia, the HUANGCHAO LIQI TUSHI , compiled by order of the Qianlong emperor, in 1759. Earlier, the style was the angular type (fangshi) which had quadrangular cross-sections and a squared scabbard end, plus grips that were usually straight.

Philip

Timo Nieminen · 2nd June 2017, 12:21 AM

Agree with the above comments re skin and brass.

As for the blade, I'm not convinced it's old. Neither am I convinced it's new. I haven't looked at enough old fullers like these to say either way. The narrow fuller looks like it's been cut by an abrasive wheel. Were old Chinese fullers like these forged, cut, or ground?

But the general shape of the blade is really good. If it's a modern blade, it's very well-made, at least in terms of geometry. Some modern blades are good, but most a poorly tapered, often far too thick near the tip for the type of sword they're meant to be. This one is not like that; this one is really good.

So while I'm not convinced it's old, I think it's probably old. If it was mine, and turned out to be modern, I'd still think it a good blade.

Philip · 3rd June 2017, 06:28 AM

Fullering on Chinese blades was done in several ways. The most usual was to cut them with chisels, then finish with scrapers (mounted with drawknife handles and following a jig) followed by shaped stones to adjust the width, depth, and to harmonize with the contours of the blade. There are some blades with a very wide gutter with a narrow edge bevel, apparently following the style of imported European sabers. Those fullers were probably forged in and finished as above. The forward ends of fullers terminate in an ogival point, just as you see on this example. They typically end about 5-7 cm ahead of the guard to leave a wedge-shaped cross-section which in some cases is cut to accept a shaped sleeve at the base, called a tunkou. The ends of fullers at the forte can be rounded, as you see here, or chiseled flush to a squared end. There is a great variety of fullering patterns on Chinese sabers: various combinations of wide and narrow (the latter are always on the dorsal side), some are segmented, there may be ornamental dimples drilled at various points, some channels may be cut so that their profiles lock into each other, other grooves form a hooked bend at the forte. Some of these elements were inspired by the vogue for Indian and Near Eastern motifs in many of the decorative arts during the high Qing period. By the the 19th cent., creativity and craftsmanship waned and the variety declined to just a few generic styles which remained largely static until the early 20th cent. Thus it can be difficult to put a date on a blade between, say, ca 1800 and the 1920s unless there is other context (such as the presence of original fittings, or metallurgical details in the steel if the blade has been polished or etched) to go on.

The grooves on this blade seem to have deep scratches here and there which may be from overly-aggressive cleaning.

23rd May 2017, 07:55 PM	#1
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	Dao ? From my collection a Dao (?) 66 cm blade, total 81 cm. The blade starts with a thickness of 7 mm at the guard and is forged down continuisly to 0 to the tip. The last 15 cm are below 2 mm thickness. Deep hollows are making the blade very light. The sweep point is something around 20 cm behind the tip ( I put a finger on it were my feeling of the sweep point is ) The scabbard has an overlay of stingray rawhide, the grip too. The fittings are made of casted (?) brass (?) . The most impression in my opinion is feeling of the balance. Its a pitty that picture will not be able to show this ;-) . Best thomas Attached Images

1st June 2017, 11:58 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	you move around in good company Dear Thomas, I am glad to hear of your work. Peter Johnsson is a man of really original thinking, have you read his article "One Single Wholeness of Things -- the Geometry of Medieval Swords in the Wallace collection" in T. Capwell (ed.) THE NOBLE ART OF THE SWORD (London: Wallace 2012)? Yes, I agree that handling the weapons to determine how their dimensions affect their balance in the hand is essential for understanding. Too many collectors and writers think they know all about a piece from merely looking at it, and thus we have misleading info in books, and historicism which has no basis in reality. This is especially true in the area of oriental and ethnographic weapons, in which a lot of people seemed focused on superficial things like decoration. Back to your saber, at least we know the blade is most likely "right" (this I say from images alone). Would be interesting to polish a section of it to determine the layering structure and heat treat. I have done it on a number of Chinese, Korean, and Indochinese blades and the results can be quite striking on the better examples, especially 18th cent. and previous work. Regarding the fittings on your piece, one can say that they are most likely a historicism in the style of the period ca. 1750 until the end of the Qing in the early 20th cent. The fashion is called "yuanshi" or rounded style, because of the elliptical section of the hilt and scabbard, the flattened globular pommel, and the rounded chape of the scabbard. These elements start to appear in the regulations for court regalia, the HUANGCHAO LIQI TUSHI , compiled by order of the Qianlong emperor, in 1759. Earlier, the style was the angular type (fangshi) which had quadrangular cross-sections and a squared scabbard end, plus grips that were usually straight. Philip

24th May 2017, 01:46 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi Thomas: Another nice sword. From the wear on the shagreen hilt and scabbard, I would think this sword is from the second half of the 19th C or early 20th C. Would that fit with your estimate of its age? The cast brass fittings might be newer. I have difficulty judging when these swords were made, given that there are so many modern reproductions that are often artificially "aged." Ian.

1st June 2017, 08:48 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Blade could quite possibly have some age to it, maybe well back into the 19th cent. I've seen similar elsewhere that were also convincing. Fittings are another matter. Rayskin is brand spanking new. The irregular patchwork assembly of panels, and mismatched colors on the scabbard are not historical, it's a recent, amateur restoration. Grip is rather fresh-looking for something that would have seen a lot of handling (and with the blade looking like it's been round the block a good many times.) The base of the pommel, which has a straight and not concave contour, is characteristic of a lot of new work. The relief deco on it, and on the guard, are rather crisp considering that these are areas that see wear from handling, and often get bumped and bruised from handling and combat, and from banging against things when the saber is worn at the belt. There is a tendency in the antiques trade in China today to remount old(er) blades in new fittings to make them complete and more saleable. Unfortunately this is the impression generated by this example.

1st June 2017, 06:43 PM	#4
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	Dear Philip Yes I completly agree with you. All of this was my first impression too. I have bought this piece just because of the feeling of the balance of the blade. As a knifesmith my focus is on the blades. This one is thinner and more balanced as I have found on modern stockremoval blades with normaly heavy and constant thickness. I often took part as a exibitor on the bladeshow in the Klingenmuseum Solingen. I was very happy to the possipility to take some swords of Peter Johnsson in my hand. His work is incredible and gives a good impression of how the balance of a blade should be. So I collect (hopefully) antique blades to study them and to learn for my own work. I´m happy just with the information that this piece is possibly an antique blade. Best regards thomas

2nd June 2017, 12:21 AM	#6
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Agree with the above comments re skin and brass. As for the blade, I'm not convinced it's old. Neither am I convinced it's new. I haven't looked at enough old fullers like these to say either way. The narrow fuller looks like it's been cut by an abrasive wheel. Were old Chinese fullers like these forged, cut, or ground? But the general shape of the blade is really good. If it's a modern blade, it's very well-made, at least in terms of geometry. Some modern blades are good, but most a poorly tapered, often far too thick near the tip for the type of sword they're meant to be. This one is not like that; this one is really good. So while I'm not convinced it's old, I think it's probably old. If it was mine, and turned out to be modern, I'd still think it a good blade.

3rd June 2017, 06:28 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Fullering on Chinese blades was done in several ways. The most usual was to cut them with chisels, then finish with scrapers (mounted with drawknife handles and following a jig) followed by shaped stones to adjust the width, depth, and to harmonize with the contours of the blade. There are some blades with a very wide gutter with a narrow edge bevel, apparently following the style of imported European sabers. Those fullers were probably forged in and finished as above. The forward ends of fullers terminate in an ogival point, just as you see on this example. They typically end about 5-7 cm ahead of the guard to leave a wedge-shaped cross-section which in some cases is cut to accept a shaped sleeve at the base, called a tunkou. The ends of fullers at the forte can be rounded, as you see here, or chiseled flush to a squared end. There is a great variety of fullering patterns on Chinese sabers: various combinations of wide and narrow (the latter are always on the dorsal side), some are segmented, there may be ornamental dimples drilled at various points, some channels may be cut so that their profiles lock into each other, other grooves form a hooked bend at the forte. Some of these elements were inspired by the vogue for Indian and Near Eastern motifs in many of the decorative arts during the high Qing period. By the the 19th cent., creativity and craftsmanship waned and the variety declined to just a few generic styles which remained largely static until the early 20th cent. Thus it can be difficult to put a date on a blade between, say, ca 1800 and the 1920s unless there is other context (such as the presence of original fittings, or metallurgical details in the steel if the blade has been polished or etched) to go on. The grooves on this blade seem to have deep scratches here and there which may be from overly-aggressive cleaning.