Nice East African club,

[Tim Simmons]

My latest thing, looks like a nice old one. I am sure it would appeal to fellow East Africanist member "roanoa" There are illustrations of such clubs stuck in warriors belts in the men at arms series "Warriors Peoples of East Africa". I would imagine they did suficient reshearch on the matter. Anyway it looks jolly good to me.

[Lew]

Tim

This club has a nautical look to it for some reason. What type of binding is on it? If it is binding why would you have it so close to the head? I would think it would be at the opposite end of the stick?


Lew

[katana]

Hi Tim,
on a practical note...I noticed that the shaft tapers, I think it would not help your grip when wielding it as a club.

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot tell a lot for the next week, I have to pay by cheque for some reason . The bindings are hide, I can see how one may see a likeness to a marlin spike? is that a thing? I could add other pics but they are very large so it is a little difficult to discern anything useful when made small. The seller says it is very heavy, it is 59cm long similar to many other items I have. I can only imagine that the hide rings make a friction surface for grip. Rest assured as soon as I have it there will be comparrision pics here .

[Tim Simmons]

The taper to the fore end did concern me me but seeing it in illustrations i thought it must be just the way they are, I can show other such tapers on sticks/weapons. Many Indian weapons "axes" have to my mind very thin handles? It may even be possible that these clubs could have been thrown when needed so the taper may have some relevance in that particular case?

[kronckew]

my first impression as a salty dog of a sailor was that is a marlinspike or fid.

marlinespikes, wood




steel fids, various:


misc fids, marlinespikes & other seaman's accessories.



these also were pressed into service as weapons on occasion. a clearer picture might help in classification of yours

[Tim Simmons]

Yes I can see the train of thought here. These pictures help show my thoughts. The object shown is the same size 59cm long.

[katana]

Tim,
I found this described as a mid 19 th C fid (marlinspike)

".....Measures a little over 18 inches long with a max diameter of 2 3/4. The spike weighs approx 1 3/4 lbs..."
Checking the description of the types of wood used in the construction of these 'fids' ...Lignum Vitae and other heavy dense timber species were used. The same wood used for clubs

The size of the 'fid' would be dependant on the thickness of rope it is used for.....which suggests that if yours is a fid ... the ship this was used on must have been fairly large.....

[Rick]

As another guy who has to keep brushing the salt from his shoulders I would say that Tim's "fid" is the longest one I have ever seen considering the length to diameter ratio .

Another note; even large sailing vessels have some smaller lines in the rigging; consider the ratlines among others .

[katana]

There is the possibillity that EVERYONE is right. It is not inconceivable that this WAS a club, modified by a matlow (by tapering the handle) to use as a spike. The fids I have seen all seem to taper evenly (conical) a shape not reflected by Tims example, but it does have the binding next to the 'head' which 'packs out' the shaft and would provide better handling (two handed) for use as a fid.
Bearing in mind the ideal types of wood used for clubs and Fids are the same ....it would make an almost ideal replacement at short notice.

Hi Rick, what I meant was that larger sailing ships would have a larger range of rope thickness.....and would require thicker rope to cope with higher 'stress loading' because of the larger masts and sails etc they 'supported'.

[Tim Simmons]

Very interesting. This thing is still another 6 inches longer so I really feel this is not a marlin spike. I can clearly see the similarity in shape. However all and even the decorated examples shown lack the subtlety of this piece, their form and execution being workman like in the extreme. I am also drawn very much to the polish and patina to the wood. Shorley if one needed a spike this long to untie knots one would need to drive it home. The elegant distal end does not seem suggestive of that kind of use. We will just have to wait. I belive in Stone there are AUS Aboriginal clubs begining with K very much of this form. I will check shortly.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes a Kujerung or Kallak. I believe there are also clubs of the same form with stout hafts rather than the tapererd throwing haft. So I might be a bit off but I am pretty sure I am not floating dead in the water.

[katana]

I have tried to enhance the picture Tim provided and it seems to add 'weight' to the above 'possibility' (that this is a modified club). From the head (photo) to the 'red line' the shaft is evenly (slightly) tapered with a 'shiny' surface. From the 'red line' to the pointed tip the surface is much more of a 'matt' surface and the edges are no longer 'evenly' tapering and the finish is not as precise (when compared to the first section.)

It could be argued that the 'matt' area is the area that has been 'handled' most.....but usually 'handled' areas of wood get 'grubby' (natural 'skin oils' / sweat) and smooth (shiny?).....as far as I know.

[Tim Simmons]

I am forming the idea that this is indeed a Kujurang which is funny because I have just today sent a boomerang and spear thrower back to AUS, this I have to say looks heaps better .

[kronckew]

after doing a bit of enhancing myself, i'm beginning to revise my original feelings, while i've seen narrow diameter wood fids which were not very tapered (see earlier examples) most have been steel, and the ones with fancy knot work have been similar to the steel examples given. most ships i've sailed on had steel wire rope rigging (and appropriate steel marlinspikes/fids), but miles of nice whitewashed fancy work on the handrails, especially on the quarterdeck. gives the deckies something to do out at sea. they'd generally use the smaller metal ones, tho the boatswain's locker would generally have an assortment.

as the material of tim's is only noted as being 'heavy' can we assume it is in reference to a dense wood of the order of lignum vitae rather than being of steel? even the enhanced photo shows no grain or woodiness which can be seen in even the smaller examples, but lignum vitae can also look like that. as an engineer officer i've seen a lot of lignum vitae, it was used for bearing surfaces in stern tubes which allowed the propeller shaft to penetrate the ship's side without flooding the ship as it was diminsionally stable even after soaking in sea water and very strong. a slight trickle of water was allowed to cool and lube the shaft which was collected in the bilge and pumped out. cleaning the sumps back there at the end of shaft alley was always a fun job assigned to someone on punishment. anyway, after years and decades of soaking in salt water, it was very dark, dense and hard as any wood i've ever seen, almost like micarta. i wish i'd had a few strips of it for knife handles.



anyway, the enhanced view of the handle binding, if accurate, is not of the same order of skill as would be required by any bo'sun i've ever known. while i'd expect a wooden fid's working end to be a bit rougher, working on small stuff on a ship would normaly be done with a smaller spike than 59cm.

finally, i am now thinking war/hunting club with nice pointy end, or as memaw would say ''y'all could poke summons eye out wif that thang''.

[Jim McDougall]

As someone without a bit of sea salt in me (but my wife always yells at me for using too much salt!!) .....I have really enjoyed this thread and learned a lot on these seagoing items!
Thanks so much for the fascinating discussion guys!! If I may say so, really good 'research legs' (cf. sea legs!).

It does seem like in some of the really salty old classic movies I've seen guys get 'bonked' (probably not very good sea lingo) with these in some of the onboard scraps.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As someone without a bit of sea salt in me (but my wife always yells at me for using too much salt!!) .....I have really enjoyed this thread and learned a lot on these seagoing items!
Thanks so much for the fascinating discussion guys!! If I may say so, really good 'research legs' (cf. sea legs!).

It does seem like in some of the really salty old classic movies I've seen guys get 'bonked' (probably not very good sea lingo) with these in some of the onboard scraps.

listen to your wife, too much salt is bad for you, jim. the thing they normally apply vigorously to the cranium of intended salty targets would normally be a belaying pin. A belaying pin is a device used on traditional sailing vessels to secure lines. Their function on modern vessels has been replaced by cleats.




bonking is a term normally reserved for a more horizontal and pleasant activity.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Kronkew! Thats the term I was thinking of...belaying! Oops!
If I was onboard a ship I probably would have been thrown overboard by now!
Good one on the 'bonking' ! That 'really' would have been a blooper on board!

[kronckew]

i think the term is more UK than US useage, unless you've seen the austin powers film. as a slight diversion here's a english-american dictionary english-american dictionary

[katana]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... or as memaw would say ''y'all could poke summons eye out wif that thang''.

Summons or Simmons ??? only joking Tim

Kronckew's point about the quality of the binding is very relavent....but why is it there? It doesn't help re-inforce the head/shaft 'junction'

Seeing the examples of kujerung and their description in Stones I think the craftsmanship of yours is superior. The binding seems to have no functional use (with a throwing club) and the sharp taper would make it more difficult to throw with maximum force and accuracy.

A short club held to allow the 'point' to protrude makes sense, a club/stabber The binding acting as a grip when used as a stabbing implement.

[Tim Simmons]

It is African or Aus. The rings are described as hide. Would hide be used traditionally in Aus, prior to white invasion the biggest animal would have been a kangaroo? Do you get think hide from kangaroo? I would think there skin was more fine like dear or sheep. Hide used like this makes me think of cattle. Do the Masai and others keep cattle? Perhape the rings help the polished wood club stay in your belt.

[Tim Simmons]

The seller is a true gentleman and sent the item on a uncleared cheque so I have it now. I have bought from him before.
Well it is fantastic, a beauty. I know it is not to many members taste but it is a real old piece from East Africa. The best club I have. The pointed end is not unusual, one just has to think of Dinka clubs with the more mushroom head clubs with a pointed end. Thick rings of hide probably cut from the tail. Much darker than the digital image {I am dissapointed with the colour response of my camera, it is quite old nowadays} I show it next to a couple of knobkerrie so you can understand it a little better, it is heavier than the knobkerries.

[katana]

Interestingly I have been researching Shilluk clubs ((because of this thread)whom were in constant conflict with the Dinka, their short shafts tend to be pointed. I would expect that this feature was shared with the Dinka and neighbouring tribes
However Spring mentions that the point was to accommodate a socketted iron spike (like a spear butt)to use as a stabbing weapon and also allows the shaft to be pushed into the ground so as to use the club as stool (shooting stick)

Many short handled clubs tend to have a slightly flared butt, even those with a tapering shaft. I have also noticed nearly ALL (that I have seen) short clubs made from Rhino horn have pointed shafts....I can only assume that this is because...
1. the hardness of the material makes the point ideal for stabbing
2. The inherent 'grip' qualities of Rhino may not need a flared butt to aid the grip of the user

David

[Tim Simmons]

I do not think every Dinka club has the matal spike. If you search the Pitt Rivers Southern Soudan project site other clubs can be seen with the pointed end. This club is wood.

[Tim Simmons]

This is the best form match I have found. Price on request usually means to me- forget it sonny!
http://www.jacarandatribal.com/produ...&categoryId=12

[Lew]

Tim

Here is one from my small collection of clubs spike end but round head.

Lew

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks Lew. I have been searching the Pitt Rivers site and not found anything in the form of this club. I wonder whether you show something more related to the north as in South Sudan, Dinka, and so on. What I present being more to the south. If one googles Ngoni, it cover a huge area. Most probably the borders waxed and waned as to how prosperous the seasons were for each neighbouring people. Power not being directly related to technology.

[Lew]

Tim

My theory is that your club is from the Southern Sudan and the binding aides gripping it when it is used as a stabbing weapon.

Lew

[Tim Simmons]

Yes most possible. I am sure that for many hundreds of miles clubs and other general skull smashing weapon design was not written in a bible.

[kai]

Hello David, Tim, et al.,

why is it there? It doesn't help re-inforce the head/shaft 'junction'
The binding acting as a grip when used as a stabbing implement.

Not only stabbing: An alternative use of a club is to hold it near the rootball and use it like a stick; literally adds weight to a punch or other uses, too.

Are there any colonial records on the use of these clubs?

Regards,
Kai