Rencong Triple Gold Crown and Black Coral

Battara · 6th June 2011, 09:33 PM

Greetings folks!

Just got this from eBay. The blade is laminated. The triple crown is missing 3 tips. The hilt is black coral (aka bahar) and the end is ivory.

Been looking for one for years. What got me was the laminated blade, gold, and especially the rare black coral.

I will make a scabbard for it this summer and one day scrape up the money for the missing gold tips ($

).

Enjoy

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2011, 09:44 PM

Whats that green stuff?

Maurice · 6th June 2011, 09:55 PM

Congrats Jose,

I'm glad you finally have found one!
Can you peek how the ivory part is attached to the akar bahar?

PS Tim, the green stuff on the golden crowns is enamel.

Maurice

Battara · 6th June 2011, 09:56 PM

The green stuff is enamel in the gold recesses.

Maurice · 6th June 2011, 09:58 PM

crossed post's...

Battara · 6th June 2011, 10:41 PM

Thanks Maurice. The ivory seems attached with epoxy but is very solid.

Also the whole piece is 15 inches long (about 37.5 cm). Bigger than I expected!

asomotif · 7th June 2011, 12:05 AM

So that is where it went

Unfortunately my budget was not enough to grab it, as it looks like an interestin restauration project.
Not a very common type with the akah bahar and golden crowns.

The ivory part of the handle, could it be that there has been a golden sleeve on that end ?
The handle looks polished, probably done when they fixed the ivory.

Dom · 7th June 2011, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

The hilt is black coral (aka bahar) and the end is ivory.
and especially the rare black coral.

Hi
even if that's not my field, I appreciated this very nice dagger ...

BUT

what's made me mad, it's the beautiful hilt in ... BLACK CORAL

for 3 years, I dived 2 to 3 times weekly in Red Sea, North of Jeddah ... our target was ==> "black coral" ... but it's rare

... very few, unfortunately

again congratulations

à +

Dom

Battara · 7th June 2011, 01:26 AM

I agree with you Asomotif - probably polished with the ivory. Do you think it had a gold sheath over the ivory?

Dom - that was one of the big selling points for me - the black coral. Only seen one other one in my life and they wanted a lot for it (no gold with that one). Yes very hard to find. Shocked to see it, and then get it!

kai · 7th June 2011, 01:27 AM

Congrats, Jose!

Quote:

Not a very common type with the akah bahar and golden crowns.

Yup, neat example.

Quote:

The ivory part of the handle, could it be that there has been a golden sleeve on that end ?

While there seems to be an endless variety of materials utilized for these status pieces, I believe the ivory is a later restoration: The carving/finish of the ivory part seems to be not on par with the rest of the hilt; also I can see no reason to utilize ivory when covering the tip with gold and, more importantly, there is no topographic trace that such a gold sleeve was ever fitted to the hilt. Akar bahar hilts are often crafted from 2 sections and the tip may have got lost/damaged beyond repair.

Quote:

The handle looks polished, probably done when they fixed the ivory.

Looks ok to me (certainly buffed up a bit for sale).

Regards,
Kai

kai · 7th June 2011, 01:53 AM

Quote:

more importantly, there is no topographic trace that such a gold sleeve was ever fitted to the hilt.

Here's an example of a status rencong stripped of triple gold crowns as well as golden "tail" to show the hints on the hilt surface.

Erik may be tempted to post more pics of his rencong...
(Left one on the first pic shown in this thread.)

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 7th June 2011, 05:27 AM

Good point Kai. I see what you mean. However I don't think I have the skills nor the gold to place upon the upturned end (not that you suggested it...). Thanks for the picture.

asomotif · 7th June 2011, 07:32 AM

[QUOTE=Battara]I agree with you Asomotif - probably polished with the ivory. Do you think it had a gold sheath over the ivory?
[QUOTE]

Yes, I am even quite sure.
Check out Erik's example on the left.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12406

Robert · 7th June 2011, 06:28 PM

Beautiful piece Jose. Can't wait to see it after you get through working your magic on it. Great new addition to your wonderful collection. Congratulations.

Robert

laEspadaAncha · 7th June 2011, 07:35 PM

Arrggggh... I'm stuck in a no-man's land between an objective appreciation of the form and now wanting one myself.

Gotta draw the line somewhere, and my line is somewhere South of rencong.

Beautiful piece, Jose...

erikscollectables · 7th June 2011, 10:03 PM

As requested a few pictures of my version

Stil very very happy with that one!

The black coral is very delicate so you see quite often either two parts of Akar Bahar for the curve or the type of handle without the end angle piece. Or as in my case a gold cover to strengthen the angle.

If I had had to restore this one I would probably have made it rounded ipo extended. That is very hard to notice and could easily have been done originally too or have been an old repair and it is the easiest solution. Here someone put quite a bit of work in restoring it where there would have been easier options so there might be a reason behind it?

Regards, Erik

asomotif · 7th June 2011, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

The black coral is very delicate so you see quite often either two parts of Akar Bahar for the curve or the type of handle without the end angle piece.

Here are the budget versions of Akar bahar hilts.

Ps. I think the ivory piece is a western recent addition.
I have never seen this on old museum collection pieces.
But replacing a gold cover with enamel seems like madness to me.

Maurice · 7th June 2011, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Here are the budget versions of Akar bahar hilts.

Ps. I think the ivory piece is a western recent addition.
I have never seen this on old museum collection pieces.
But replacing a gold cover with enamel seems like madness to me.

Willem,

I think it would be a big challange for you in your noble smith class....

Nice rencongs BTW.

Kind Regards,
Maurice

asomotif · 7th June 2011, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Willem,

I think it would be a big challange for you in your noble smith class....

Noble smith

I found "Silversmith" and "forging".

But restoring the end cap in gold, with chisseling and enamel work...
It looks like a very tough job.

Would it be possible Jose ??

Maurice · 7th June 2011, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Noble smith

I found "Silversmith" and "forging".

Well Willem as you're a noble man, I thought Noble smith was more eligible to use...

Battara · 8th June 2011, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

But restoring the end cap in gold, with chisseling and enamel work...
It looks like a very tough job.

Would it be possible Jose ??

Well, may be a little above my skills. I'm not sure. Would rather find someone else to do this, at least the gold work. Not worried about the enamel work as much as the gold work. However the gold itself is expensive. Will take to a jeweler friend for opinions.

Any suggestions or referrals would be welcome.

asomotif · 8th June 2011, 12:27 AM

Here is an example I found on the web.
Collection Tropenmuseum.
Not the unusual type of golden crown on this one

Battara · 8th June 2011, 02:04 AM

Thank you Asomotif and Erik.

Erik - have never seen the end of this type before and therefore did not know that the end cap was filigree with a stone.

Below are your museum pictures filtered to see more detail for our forum records.

Jonno · 8th June 2011, 06:09 AM

Here another example from a private collection.

John
www.atchin.nl

Battara · 8th June 2011, 07:37 AM

Thank you Jonno. I have looked at these rencongs from a link by another member in this thread and have noticed that several of these have gold sections missing from them.

erikscollectables · 8th June 2011, 09:19 AM

100% perfect ones are really really rare - most have a problem somewhere...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you Jonno. I have looked at these rencongs from a link by another member in this thread and have noticed that several of these have gold sections missing from them.

erikscollectables · 8th June 2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Here are the budget versions of Akar bahar hilts.

Still rare examples and very nice - I like the black coral a lot but it is very unpractical for a fighting knife what most rencongs essentialy are...

erikscollectables · 8th June 2011, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you Asomotif and Erik.

Erik - have never seen the end of this type before and therefore did not know that the end cap was filigree with a stone.
.

Hi Jose,

This is not always the case - most often it is the same as the other parts flat with enamel inlay. Stones you see more often but stone and the filigree is quite rare I think.

My expectation is that is you had to have to buy the gold for the rear piece and then also the time of a jeweller to make it you would spend more than on buying a perfect old example. Remember the gold is above 18k and current gold prices are not funny at all....nor are jewellers hourly wages and this would take a bit of time for someone to make....

Best regards, Erik

Battara · 8th June 2011, 05:41 PM

Yes I have been thinking of that. The most I think I could afford is for the crowns to be complete. I figure that getting the whole piece restored in gold would be around $2000+.

I will restrict myself only to the crowns and the scabbard.

asomotif · 8th June 2011, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes I have been thinking of that. The most I think I could afford is for the crowns to be complete. I figure that getting the whole piece restored in gold would be around $2000+.

I will restrict myself only to the crowns and the scabbard.

Maybe use gold plated silver

6th June 2011, 09:33 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Rencong Triple Gold Crown and Black Coral Greetings folks! Just got this from eBay. The blade is laminated. The triple crown is missing 3 tips. The hilt is black coral (aka bahar) and the end is ivory. Been looking for one for years. What got me was the laminated blade, gold, and especially the rare black coral. I will make a scabbard for it this summer and one day scrape up the money for the missing gold tips ($ ). Enjoy Attached Images

7th June 2011, 10:03 PM	#16
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Akar Bahar and gold hilt As requested a few pictures of my version Stil very very happy with that one! The black coral is very delicate so you see quite often either two parts of Akar Bahar for the curve or the type of handle without the end angle piece. Or as in my case a gold cover to strengthen the angle. If I had had to restore this one I would probably have made it rounded ipo extended. That is very hard to notice and could easily have been done originally too or have been an old repair and it is the easiest solution. Here someone put quite a bit of work in restoring it where there would have been easier options so there might be a reason behind it? Regards, Erik Attached Images

8th June 2011, 12:27 AM	#22
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Here is an example I found on the web. Collection Tropenmuseum. Not the unusual type of golden crown on this one Attached Images

8th June 2011, 02:04 AM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thank you Asomotif and Erik. Erik - have never seen the end of this type before and therefore did not know that the end cap was filigree with a stone. Below are your museum pictures filtered to see more detail for our forum records. Attached Images

8th June 2011, 06:09 AM	#24
Jonno Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 51	Here another example from a private collection. John www.atchin.nl Attached Images

6th June 2011, 09:44 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Whats that green stuff?

6th June 2011, 09:55 PM	#3
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	Congrats Jose, I'm glad you finally have found one! Can you peek how the ivory part is attached to the akar bahar? PS Tim, the green stuff on the golden crowns is enamel. Maurice

6th June 2011, 09:56 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	The green stuff is enamel in the gold recesses.

6th June 2011, 09:58 PM	#5
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,352	crossed post's...

6th June 2011, 10:41 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thanks Maurice. The ivory seems attached with epoxy but is very solid. Also the whole piece is 15 inches long (about 37.5 cm). Bigger than I expected!

7th June 2011, 12:05 AM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	So that is where it went Unfortunately my budget was not enough to grab it, as it looks like an interestin restauration project. Not a very common type with the akah bahar and golden crowns. The ivory part of the handle, could it be that there has been a golden sleeve on that end ? The handle looks polished, probably done when they fixed the ivory.

7th June 2011, 01:26 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I agree with you Asomotif - probably polished with the ivory. Do you think it had a gold sheath over the ivory? Dom - that was one of the big selling points for me - the black coral. Only seen one other one in my life and they wanted a lot for it (no gold with that one). Yes very hard to find. Shocked to see it, and then get it!

7th June 2011, 05:27 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Good point Kai. I see what you mean. However I don't think I have the skills nor the gold to place upon the upturned end (not that you suggested it...). Thanks for the picture.

7th June 2011, 07:32 AM	#13
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	[QUOTE=Battara]I agree with you Asomotif - probably polished with the ivory. Do you think it had a gold sheath over the ivory? [QUOTE] Yes, I am even quite sure. Check out Erik's example on the left. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12406

7th June 2011, 06:28 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Beautiful piece Jose. Can't wait to see it after you get through working your magic on it. Great new addition to your wonderful collection. Congratulations. Robert

7th June 2011, 07:35 PM	#15
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Arrggggh... I'm stuck in a no-man's land between an objective appreciation of the form and now wanting one myself. Gotta draw the line somewhere, and my line is somewhere South of rencong. Beautiful piece, Jose...

8th June 2011, 07:37 AM	#25
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Thank you Jonno. I have looked at these rencongs from a link by another member in this thread and have noticed that several of these have gold sections missing from them.

8th June 2011, 05:41 PM	#29
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Yes I have been thinking of that. The most I think I could afford is for the crowns to be complete. I figure that getting the whole piece restored in gold would be around $2000+. I will restrict myself only to the crowns and the scabbard.