Klewang/Bolo ID Assist?

Conogre · 14th February 2005, 09:29 PM

Since I'm back, I just happen to have picked up several that have me a bit stumped and thought I'd ask you gentlemen for some assistance and opinions on.
This one has an overall length of 20 1/2", an unusual 14 1/4" curved blade that's hand forged and 5/16ths of an inch thick where it enters the hilt.
The blade is tanged and pinned into a dark wooden hilt that's split open for 3/4 of it's length and wrapped with 3 thick copper bands.
The pommel end is in the form of a simple animal face that's inset with two copper eyes and a copper mouth and has an opening in the top of the head that looks like it may have held talismentic items or something in the past.
One thing I find peculiar is that both the face on the hilt and the carving od the flower on the scabbard are VERY reminiscent of childhood drawings as might be found on a refrigerator by proud parents of a five or 6 year old.
The scabbard is two pieces of a light, dark colored wood that are pierced and held together with old wire.
The entire piece appears to have substantial age to it.
If I missed anything, don't hesitate to ask.

Lew · 14th February 2005, 09:46 PM

Hi Guy

Nice to see that you are back! My opinion is that is of Philippine origin. The animal head hilt seems to be either some kind of horse or dog's head?

Lew

Ian · 14th February 2005, 10:16 PM

Good to see you here again.

I agree with Lew, looks Philippinish but hard to pin point quite where.

Conogre · 14th February 2005, 10:32 PM

That's what I thought when I bought it, but upon close inspection it's unlike anything else I've seen from the region, with the blade actually resembling the Mandayan sword that I have more than anything else, but in all other aspects it's another "oddball" that doesn't seem to truly fit any particular designation.

tom hyle · 15th February 2005, 01:12 AM

Other than the sperm whale tip, the blade resembles a mainland SE Asian arit or mak. The 3 ferule bands on the handles are also reminiscent of that type.

Conogre · 15th February 2005, 03:06 AM

!!

Conogre · 15th February 2005, 03:09 AM

Hi Tom.....I'm fairly certain this definitely isn't in the rice chopping family, being one of the heaviest pieces of all of the Philippine pieces that I have, weighing in at 2 1/4 lbs., even heavier than most klewangs.
It has a large chip out of the front of the cutting edge of the blade ( a full inch long), and of all of the times I've seen the comment "...as if blocked by a rifle barrel", this is the first time that that thought actually occurred to me.
This is also the only piece I've seen with an intentionally hollow hilt....I like the "sperm whale" comment!**grin**.
It actually reminds me of Cecil the Sea Serpent of "Beany and Cecil" fame from long ago.

Ian · 15th February 2005, 04:49 AM

Here are a couple of Montagnard mak for comparison. I will be talking about these and other Montagnard edged weapons at Timonium.

There is a superficial resemblance to Congre's chopper, but not very close. The hilt on Conogre's knife is rather a poor fit to the tang -- one wonders if it is a later addition, and the bands are a "make do" fix to keep it in place. The animal hilt looks as though it could be from several places in Luzon (Batangas, Pampanga, even Ilocos).

Conogre · 15th February 2005, 05:02 AM

Actually, there is a LOT of basic similarity in the way the blade curves into the hilt, Ian, a true surprise.
From the amount of "grunge" in the open hilt, along the tang, I would say any changes were made a considerable time ago and the sloppy, although very tight and solid mounting does go with the general overall primitive style.
You are correct, however in the copper bands having been added at a later date, as evidenced by the difference in width of the slots for them to set into vs the bands themselves, obviously either a remount or a repair.
When I say "primitive", now that you have me thinking, the blade style almost seems too good for the hilt and scabbard, although the scabbard was definitely made for this blade.
The hilt, by the way, appears to be a very dark hardwood similar to "Macassar (sp?) ebony" with a very dark, blackened patina making it look like horn.

tom hyle · 15th February 2005, 01:41 PM

Nothing solid, but my understanding from the beginning has leaned toward this not being the origninal dress, and perhaps not even of the original nation. Are these new pics? I hadn't seen the flat tang. That strenthens its resemblance to the Moro panabas, some of which occasionally have such a tang, and are sometimes mounted as swords. The hollow of the horn is usually filled with wood on long-tang PI pieces, but here there'd be nothing to retain such, so hollow, ala sikkin. BTW I don't think arit/mak is a rice cutting tool; mine is a 3/4"+ iron bar at its base, and the blade itself is thick and solid; my impression is that they are for brush, rattan, etc.

Conogre · 15th February 2005, 03:34 PM

While the hilt is probably a replacement, the blade itself, to me, has a Philippine "feel" to it and, as you stated, the tang is flat, 1/4" thick by1" wide and 4" long.
The other Philippine bolo style sword that I have with a curved blade is also extremely atypical, with the general consensus a few years ago being that it was likey Mandaya, the blade completely dissimilar to this piece.

Ian · 15th February 2005, 05:04 PM

I agree with Tom about the mak. It is a potent chopper, often with a substantial blade. The thicknesses of the blade just in front of the hilts on my two are about 5/8 inch for the top one and about 3/8 inch for the lower one. Both blades are very sharp along the concave edge.

These were probably used to clear brush, chop down bamboo, small branches, etc. The "hook" would be well suited to removing small, low-hanging branches from trees (much like garden tool branch loppers we can obtain in the US).

Ian.

VANDOO · 15th February 2005, 05:37 PM

WELCOME BACK MIKE!
I HAD BID ON THIS ITEM ALSO AND IT IS A LOT NICER THAN THE DESCRIPTIONS AND PICTURES. CONGRADULATIONS IT APPEARS TO HAVE THE CHISIL EDGED BLADE FLAT ON ONE SIDE TYPICALLY FOUND IN THE PHILIPPINES AND ELSEWHERE, THE FACE LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING FROM THAT AREA ALSO PROBABLY VISIAN ISLANDS. THE SPLIT HANDLE ATTACHED WITH PINS AND THEN REINFORCED WITH COPPER BANDS MAY HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED BY OUTSIDE CONTACT OR MIGHT BE A VARIATION OF THE PANABAS TYPE HANDLES BUT I DON'T THINK THEY HAD PINS. I WOULD RULE OUT A MORO ORIGIN BUT WHAT GROUP TO ASIGN IT TO HAS ME STUMPED ALSO. WHICH PHILIPPINE TRIBES LIKED TO PUT HAIR OR SOMETHING IN THE POMEL OF THEIR SWORDS? YOU MIGHT TRY A LIGHT ETCH TO SEE IF THE BLADE IS FORGED WATERED STEEL OR OF UNIFORM COMPOSITION. GOOD LUCK

Conogre · 15th February 2005, 08:02 PM

Thanks all, and no ofense meant about "rice choppers" Tom, an obviously bad choice of words! **grin**
The Mak actually look very interesting, similar to a Thai tool used for, I think, harvesting and clearing bananas, with theirs being socketed rather than tanged.
Barry, the blade isn't chisel type, something important that I didn't think to add, but rather uniformly slanting down both sides to a razor edge.
I must have taken another stupid pill as I found another PI piece that's similarly mounted, minus the bands, a fairly contemorary machete or brush knife from the N. Islands that also has the open hilt, dark wood and three large pins, as well as an even heavier Iif conventionally shaped) blade, this one with a leather sheath, so it probably IS Visayan in origin.
I just can't help wondering if some of these atypical pieces that I find so attractive aren't older weapon/tool styles that either are or have vanished with modernization, as well as feeling that we are the losers as they vanish into time without even leaving a footnote.

Andrew · 16th February 2005, 02:47 AM

Mike! Great to see you here.

zelbone · 16th February 2005, 04:05 PM

This could possibly be an Espading...used primarily to cut sugar cane or a rehilted tabas.

14th February 2005, 09:29 PM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Klewang/Bolo ID Assist? Since I'm back, I just happen to have picked up several that have me a bit stumped and thought I'd ask you gentlemen for some assistance and opinions on. This one has an overall length of 20 1/2", an unusual 14 1/4" curved blade that's hand forged and 5/16ths of an inch thick where it enters the hilt. The blade is tanged and pinned into a dark wooden hilt that's split open for 3/4 of it's length and wrapped with 3 thick copper bands. The pommel end is in the form of a simple animal face that's inset with two copper eyes and a copper mouth and has an opening in the top of the head that looks like it may have held talismentic items or something in the past. One thing I find peculiar is that both the face on the hilt and the carving od the flower on the scabbard are VERY reminiscent of childhood drawings as might be found on a refrigerator by proud parents of a five or 6 year old. The scabbard is two pieces of a light, dark colored wood that are pierced and held together with old wire. The entire piece appears to have substantial age to it. If I missed anything, don't hesitate to ask. Attached Images

14th February 2005, 10:16 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Welcome back Mike! Good to see you here again. I agree with Lew, looks Philippinish but hard to pin point quite where.

15th February 2005, 03:06 AM	#6
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	!! Last edited by Conogre; 15th February 2005 at 03:11 AM. Reason: accidental double post

15th February 2005, 04:49 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	A couple of mak for comparison Here are a couple of Montagnard mak for comparison. I will be talking about these and other Montagnard edged weapons at Timonium. There is a superficial resemblance to Congre's chopper, but not very close. The hilt on Conogre's knife is rather a poor fit to the tang -- one wonders if it is a later addition, and the bands are a "make do" fix to keep it in place. The animal hilt looks as though it could be from several places in Luzon (Batangas, Pampanga, even Ilocos). Attached Images

15th February 2005, 05:02 AM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Actually, there is a LOT of basic similarity in the way the blade curves into the hilt, Ian, a true surprise. From the amount of "grunge" in the open hilt, along the tang, I would say any changes were made a considerable time ago and the sloppy, although very tight and solid mounting does go with the general overall primitive style. You are correct, however in the copper bands having been added at a later date, as evidenced by the difference in width of the slots for them to set into vs the bands themselves, obviously either a remount or a repair. When I say "primitive", now that you have me thinking, the blade style almost seems too good for the hilt and scabbard, although the scabbard was definitely made for this blade. The hilt, by the way, appears to be a very dark hardwood similar to "Macassar (sp?) ebony" with a very dark, blackened patina making it look like horn. Last edited by Conogre; 15th February 2005 at 05:23 AM.

14th February 2005, 09:46 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guy Nice to see that you are back! My opinion is that is of Philippine origin. The animal head hilt seems to be either some kind of horse or dog's head? Lew

14th February 2005, 10:32 PM	#4
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	That's what I thought when I bought it, but upon close inspection it's unlike anything else I've seen from the region, with the blade actually resembling the Mandayan sword that I have more than anything else, but in all other aspects it's another "oddball" that doesn't seem to truly fit any particular designation.

15th February 2005, 01:12 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Other than the sperm whale tip, the blade resembles a mainland SE Asian arit or mak. The 3 ferule bands on the handles are also reminiscent of that type.

15th February 2005, 03:09 AM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Hi Tom.....I'm fairly certain this definitely isn't in the rice chopping family, being one of the heaviest pieces of all of the Philippine pieces that I have, weighing in at 2 1/4 lbs., even heavier than most klewangs. It has a large chip out of the front of the cutting edge of the blade ( a full inch long), and of all of the times I've seen the comment "...as if blocked by a rifle barrel", this is the first time that that thought actually occurred to me. This is also the only piece I've seen with an intentionally hollow hilt....I like the "sperm whale" comment!grin. It actually reminds me of Cecil the Sea Serpent of "Beany and Cecil" fame from long ago.

15th February 2005, 01:41 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Nothing solid, but my understanding from the beginning has leaned toward this not being the origninal dress, and perhaps not even of the original nation. Are these new pics? I hadn't seen the flat tang. That strenthens its resemblance to the Moro panabas, some of which occasionally have such a tang, and are sometimes mounted as swords. The hollow of the horn is usually filled with wood on long-tang PI pieces, but here there'd be nothing to retain such, so hollow, ala sikkin. BTW I don't think arit/mak is a rice cutting tool; mine is a 3/4"+ iron bar at its base, and the blade itself is thick and solid; my impression is that they are for brush, rattan, etc.

15th February 2005, 03:34 PM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	While the hilt is probably a replacement, the blade itself, to me, has a Philippine "feel" to it and, as you stated, the tang is flat, 1/4" thick by1" wide and 4" long. The other Philippine bolo style sword that I have with a curved blade is also extremely atypical, with the general consensus a few years ago being that it was likey Mandaya, the blade completely dissimilar to this piece. Attached Images

15th February 2005, 05:04 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Mak is a powerful chopper I agree with Tom about the mak. It is a potent chopper, often with a substantial blade. The thicknesses of the blade just in front of the hilts on my two are about 5/8 inch for the top one and about 3/8 inch for the lower one. Both blades are very sharp along the concave edge. These were probably used to clear brush, chop down bamboo, small branches, etc. The "hook" would be well suited to removing small, low-hanging branches from trees (much like garden tool branch loppers we can obtain in the US). Ian.

15th February 2005, 05:37 PM	#13
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME BACK MIKE! I HAD BID ON THIS ITEM ALSO AND IT IS A LOT NICER THAN THE DESCRIPTIONS AND PICTURES. CONGRADULATIONS IT APPEARS TO HAVE THE CHISIL EDGED BLADE FLAT ON ONE SIDE TYPICALLY FOUND IN THE PHILIPPINES AND ELSEWHERE, THE FACE LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING FROM THAT AREA ALSO PROBABLY VISIAN ISLANDS. THE SPLIT HANDLE ATTACHED WITH PINS AND THEN REINFORCED WITH COPPER BANDS MAY HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED BY OUTSIDE CONTACT OR MIGHT BE A VARIATION OF THE PANABAS TYPE HANDLES BUT I DON'T THINK THEY HAD PINS. I WOULD RULE OUT A MORO ORIGIN BUT WHAT GROUP TO ASIGN IT TO HAS ME STUMPED ALSO. WHICH PHILIPPINE TRIBES LIKED TO PUT HAIR OR SOMETHING IN THE POMEL OF THEIR SWORDS? YOU MIGHT TRY A LIGHT ETCH TO SEE IF THE BLADE IS FORGED WATERED STEEL OR OF UNIFORM COMPOSITION. GOOD LUCK

15th February 2005, 08:02 PM	#14
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thanks all, and no ofense meant about "rice choppers" Tom, an obviously bad choice of words! grin The Mak actually look very interesting, similar to a Thai tool used for, I think, harvesting and clearing bananas, with theirs being socketed rather than tanged. Barry, the blade isn't chisel type, something important that I didn't think to add, but rather uniformly slanting down both sides to a razor edge. I must have taken another stupid pill as I found another PI piece that's similarly mounted, minus the bands, a fairly contemorary machete or brush knife from the N. Islands that also has the open hilt, dark wood and three large pins, as well as an even heavier Iif conventionally shaped) blade, this one with a leather sheath, so it probably IS Visayan in origin. I just can't help wondering if some of these atypical pieces that I find so attractive aren't older weapon/tool styles that either are or have vanished with modernization, as well as feeling that we are the losers as they vanish into time without even leaving a footnote.

16th February 2005, 02:47 AM	#15
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Mike! Great to see you here.

16th February 2005, 04:05 PM	#16
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	This could possibly be an Espading...used primarily to cut sugar cane or a rehilted tabas.