Nice karabela hitled shamshir

Valjhun · 7th March 2006, 08:51 AM

That was nice!

Ebay number: 6609336728

ham · 7th March 2006, 10:21 AM

I'm afraid it's a rather poor modern copy.
If you look carefully at the elements, you will see they are all drawn from different types of sword as well as from different periods...

Ham

ariel · 7th March 2006, 12:43 PM

As a matter of fact, I wanted to post the same one for discussion, but.. heck! the glory goes to Valjhun!
I fully agree with Ham: the silver crossguard is very Polish (Wolviex, can you hear me? Come and judge us!), but looks perfectly pristine. Nary a scratch!
The handle is wood (could it have been so well preserved over the years?) and the incisions are very crude and not worn out. The blade has a Persian Qajar stamp dating it 20th century at the latest (I would not argue against 21st....)
This sword saw as much action on the battlefield as my wife's manicure scissors. My guess it is a modern souvenir from Poland.
That is fine, I have nothing against mementos (bought enough tee shirts and keychains myself), but for that price they could have thrown at least a case of Wyborowa into a deal!

wolviex · 7th March 2006, 01:49 PM

Well...., I'm a little surprised of your Polish plot Ariel, I didn't think about it that way, at first glance. What do you mean by "modern souvenir"? - if you mean made within last 50-10 years, then I would be sceptical, though I don't know the tourist market very well. I would be surprised if someone wanted to sell as souvenir sabre with Persian marks, until it is one or one of very few examples to cheat someone. What you can buy today are almost only those sabres where you can find strictly Polish inscriptions. But who knows? Anyway the hilt might look Polish, but it could be from anywhere else too. Such hilts, made of silver, often with not high quality engravings are seen in Polish karabelas from the 2nd half of the 19th century. The motif of the little flowers was in use in Polish armament from the ca. beginning of the 18th century, as an influence of Persian art. But all of these doesn't exclude the possibility of other country origin, in my opinion. There are no real Polish features that could tell us for sure it was/is souvenir from this beautiful country. Maybe the blade is misleading me... but I just don't feel the National spirit in this sabre

. Just might be, but nothing for sure.

ariel · 7th March 2006, 02:19 PM

You might be right (I am sure you are!) about my Polish allusions. It might be of Turkish, Iranian or Syrian manufacture. I just prefer Wyborowa to Arak

No matter what, I do not believe this sword is really old.

M.carter · 7th March 2006, 02:42 PM

When I went to Syria in 2004, I saw many blades like this one, with fake Persian stamps, all newly made, but with horrible quality. Though I must say I never encountered any hilt like this in any bazaar over there.

ham · 8th March 2006, 07:35 PM

Ariel,

First off, bravo Wyborowa but if you are going to bring up arak please specify good Turkish raki, the noblest of licorice intoxicants, eh?

Well observed on this sword. The guard however, is not silver, it is cast aluminium or pewter.

The blade is entirely suspect as well-- it may also be cast metal (did anyone think to have the seller put a magnet to it for that amount of money?) or the marks were applied with acid or machine tools.
The grips are absolutely fresh wood, even the rivets show no wear.

The quality of work coming out of Damascus is above this, they are lavishing things both old and new with koftgari and are beginning to get the hilt and scabbard elements right.

This sword was probably made in India or perhaps in E. Europe (sorry for that, Michal.) Wherever a market exists, some enterprising sort will try to fill it, be it Tanjore or Tbilisi.

Emptors must really caveat these days.

Ham

M.carter · 8th March 2006, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Ariel,

The quality of work coming out of Damascus is above this, they are lavishing things both old and new with koftgari and are beginning to get the hilt and scabbard elements right.

Ham

Ofcourse Ham this not to say that all whats coming out of damascus is junk. Some swords there are one piece masterpeices, which sell for $20000+, some are very good, histrically accurate, functional swords. Other, like this one (if its indeed a fake), are simply junk, with cast blades and acid etched marks. I was smart enough to take a magnet with me to Syria, and many blades, like this one, did not attract...

ariel · 9th March 2006, 01:07 AM

BTW, I specifically asked the seller about the blade: he assured me it was real steel, full fighting quality, old etc, etc.

As for Raki, my Greek friends would fight you to the end: Ouzo is the right stuff.
Ever tried Lebanese Arak from Zahle? This is the top, no more arguments, please!!!!!
Personally, I do not like Anise. I am into beer, vodka and Grappa (under whatever name it appears in different countries: Palinka, Tuika, Pisco, Rakijka, Loza, , Chacha... You name it)

ariel · 9th March 2006, 01:19 AM

I am 'thirsty"....

ham · 9th March 2006, 01:47 AM

Glad to see someone did the legwork, thank you Ariel.

Now then as to Ouzo... are you suggesting drinking this and grappa?
I find them most suitable for cleaning the odd Webley or Moisin Nagant.

Now for the Wyborowa and good raki

Cheers

Ham

Rick · 9th March 2006, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Glad to see someone did the legwork, thank you Ariel.

Now then as to Ouzo... are you suggesting drinking this and grappa?
I find them most suitable for cleaning the odd Webley or Moisin Nagant.

Now for the Wyborowa and good raki

Cheers

Ham

Hell , you could run a chainsaw on Ouzo mixed with a little olive oil.

A friend once poured some into an insulated plastic tumbler I had and it actually crazed the plastic surface .

ham · 9th March 2006, 03:52 AM

Thank you for adding your voice to this matter, Rick.
I consider it an important endorsement of the truth.

I hope the new owner of the sword under discussion has something potent on hand. I suspect he is going to need it.

Next up: eggs-- which end does the well-informed individual open first?
Guest lecturer: Jonathan Swift

Ham

ariel · 9th March 2006, 05:28 AM

And now... for something completely different.
Here is another one that just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
I love Caucasian weapons and always wanted to get a Daghestani sword (not shashka). And here was the one I wanted!
However, I was a bit uncomfortable: the handle did not seem right. Daghestani swords rarely used horn, their pommels usually ended with a carved horse, dog or dragon , and this particular one looked kind of.... new. I contacted the seller and he assured me that it was original. Well....The blade looks overcleaned although there are traces of false damascening within the fullers
What do you think? Did I make a mistake not bidding on the "dream of my life" ?

ham · 9th March 2006, 07:11 AM

Ariel,

You're okay, it's not from Daghestan. This is a Khevsur sabre of the 1920s-30s; the key is in the motifs, techniques and materials used in the inlays. You might compare with some shown in Astvatsaturian.
Incidentally, the scabbard has been recently recovered in pigskin. You won't find that in Daghestan much.

Ham

sabertasche · 9th March 2006, 07:40 AM

Wow guys, I almost bid on that sword! Ever since I joined the forum I've been looking for Eastern stuff and I thought I moight give it a try. I gave up when the bidding went stupid. I also found other "buy it now" blades without the mystery and in better shape with scabbards. I haven't bought them either as I haven't read the books yet to give me an informed decision on what to buy. I can wait...and learn from the forum

Greg

ariel · 9th March 2006, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Ariel,

You're okay, it's not from Daghestan. This is a Khevsur sabre of the 1920s-30s; the key is in the motifs, techniques and materials used in the inlays. You might compare with some shown in Astvatsaturian.
Incidentally, the scabbard has been recently recovered in pigskin. You won't find that in Daghestan much.

Ham

Thanks for relieving my anxiety.
However, I would disagree a bit. Georgian and Daghestani Palashes were vey similar in terms of blades. The handle... Well, it is new and cannot tell us much, anyway. Khevsur palashes had scabbards clad in silver or brass sheets. Again, either Georg./Dagh. or a major loss of the original. The hanging rings are not simple round but heart-shaped and flattened (again, Dagh./Georg.)The ornamentation is vegetal, very much Georgian/Daghestani .
I do think this is a heavily(and I mean HEAVILY!!!) restored Daghestani/Georgian. But... pigskin!!! Yuck! And I am not talking about Halal, but about authenticity: goat or donkey are the only ones.
In any case, even if I was too cautious, at least it went to a fellow Forumite. Valjhun, enjoy!

Valjhun · 9th March 2006, 06:06 PM

well Ariel, we hadn't understood yupsss, maybe is the sliwowitza yupss, but I haven't bought that sword, as you can read in the other thread... I haven't liked it from the beginnig...

ham · 9th March 2006, 06:56 PM

It should be borne in mind that the Khevsur are Georgians, albeit mountain dwellers. The familiar Khevsur sword mounted in strips of silver or brass (and later, even aluminium) is one type. However it is predated by the form of the sword Ariel didn't get. This was popular in Georgian urban centers and was adopted from the Persians-- I am sure Astvatsaturian shows examples in Weapons of the Caucasian Peoples...? Don't have a copy with me this time.

The grip is not replaced, it is a characteristic example actually. Other than the odious recovering, which seems to represent some government directive carried out on every piece to exit the former Soviet states since Gorbachev, it is of the correct form-- this includes the mounts which, though crude, are traditional.

Ham

ariel · 10th March 2006, 12:17 AM

You are right: Khevsuri, Georgian and Daghestani sabers (of the so-called Iranian type) did overlap: after all Khevsurs straddle the border between Georgia proper and Daghestan.
Here are some pics from Astvatsaturyan
:
#1: Khevsur saber and Palash
#2:Georgian sabers
#3-4: Daghestani swords (sabers included)

All have "shamshir" type handles that, unlike Persians are oval in section and get progressively more narrow toward the pommel.
There is no argument: they look quite alike. But look at the belt rings of the sword in question: they are not round like Khevsuri, but "heart shaped" like Daghestani. The vegetal pattern on the crossguard and the drag are Daghestani, not Khevsuri, in my mind: the latter used crosses and just multiple points.
The handle looks authentic in superficial form but is far too intact, shiny, and the rivets are covered with horn buttons. Those should have fallen out long ago. Astvatsaturyan specifically mentions that Daghestani sabers only rarely had horn handles and that the handles often had an image of dog's, horse's or dragon's head carved into the end of the pommel. It is not there, and the tip is not "capped". The blade has no markings. Even though it looks real, the absense of markings is suspicious on the blades from this part of the world.
Overall, I have far too many doubts about this sword: it is partly authentic but there is too much uncertainty and too many nagging suspicions and inconsistensies about it. If I bought it, I would have looked at it time and time again and trusted it less and less.
One of my colleagues once married a stripper. Divorced her in 6 months to a year at very high financial cost. A cautionary tale for impulsive e-bay buyers.....
On the other hand, look at the ivory-hilted saber on pic. #2: its twin recently sold on e-bay, and I missed it...... A real Georgian saber made by Purunsuzov or Eliarov at the beginning of the 19th century in Akhaltsikhe. I am still kicking myself......

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 04:49 AM

Getting back to the karabela being discussed here, I am inclined to agree with Ham, this floral guard seems cast. I also am inclined to this being quite possibly a modern product or furbishing of components done most likely in India.
Regardless of where it was made or when, one cannot overlook the innate beauty of a karabela sabre. I have seen a modern interpretation of one of these crafted in Poland, and the high quality of the work certainly reflected the deep pride with which these historic sabres are held in thier country.

Outstanding discussion on the Khevsur swords!!! I think it's excellent that we're finally getting some awareness and sound knowledge on these swords that were relatively unknown just over ten years ago.

Best regards,
Jim

ham · 10th March 2006, 07:34 AM

Well said, Jim.
Members like yourself, Yannis and others have really opened up the subject of Khevsur arms and kept it going. Bravo
Ariel, regarding this Khevsur sword-- it is such late work, you can't really abstract and attribute characteristics like the shape of the rings on the suspension bands anymore-- they are probably gas-welded on, in any case. It's a hodgepodge of elements. With this in mind however, it does shows some Kubachi influence as you suggest.

Ham

ariel · 10th March 2006, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Well said, Jim.
Members like yourself, Yannis and others have really opened up the subject of Khevsur arms and kept it going. Bravo
Ariel, regarding this Khevsur sword-- it is such late work, you can't really abstract and attribute characteristics like the shape of the rings on the suspension bands anymore-- they are probably gas-welded on, in any case. It's a hodgepodge of elements. With this in mind however, it does shows some Kubachi influence as you suggest.

Ham

Now we are getting somewhere.
Glad you agree that the sword in question is recent, hodge-podge and suspect. That was exactly my point and I likely did not get it across very well.
At the end of the day I am glad I managed to get a grip on myself at the last moment and did not throw money away on that insane purchase.
The "ivory hilted" one is another story altogether...... Any chance to turn the clock back? Time machine, anyone?

7th March 2006, 01:49 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	hmmm.... Well...., I'm a little surprised of your Polish plot Ariel, I didn't think about it that way, at first glance. What do you mean by "modern souvenir"? - if you mean made within last 50-10 years, then I would be sceptical, though I don't know the tourist market very well. I would be surprised if someone wanted to sell as souvenir sabre with Persian marks, until it is one or one of very few examples to cheat someone. What you can buy today are almost only those sabres where you can find strictly Polish inscriptions. But who knows? Anyway the hilt might look Polish, but it could be from anywhere else too. Such hilts, made of silver, often with not high quality engravings are seen in Polish karabelas from the 2nd half of the 19th century. The motif of the little flowers was in use in Polish armament from the ca. beginning of the 18th century, as an influence of Persian art. But all of these doesn't exclude the possibility of other country origin, in my opinion. There are no real Polish features that could tell us for sure it was/is souvenir from this beautiful country. Maybe the blade is misleading me... but I just don't feel the National spirit in this sabre . Just might be, but nothing for sure.

9th March 2006, 07:11 AM	#15
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Ariel, You're okay, it's not from Daghestan. This is a Khevsur sabre of the 1920s-30s; the key is in the motifs, techniques and materials used in the inlays. You might compare with some shown in Astvatsaturian. Incidentally, the scabbard has been recently recovered in pigskin. You won't find that in Daghestan much. Ham Last edited by ham; 9th March 2006 at 08:33 AM.

10th March 2006, 12:17 AM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are right: Khevsuri, Georgian and Daghestani sabers (of the so-called Iranian type) did overlap: after all Khevsurs straddle the border between Georgia proper and Daghestan. Here are some pics from Astvatsaturyan : #1: Khevsur saber and Palash #2:Georgian sabers #3-4: Daghestani swords (sabers included) All have "shamshir" type handles that, unlike Persians are oval in section and get progressively more narrow toward the pommel. There is no argument: they look quite alike. But look at the belt rings of the sword in question: they are not round like Khevsuri, but "heart shaped" like Daghestani. The vegetal pattern on the crossguard and the drag are Daghestani, not Khevsuri, in my mind: the latter used crosses and just multiple points. The handle looks authentic in superficial form but is far too intact, shiny, and the rivets are covered with horn buttons. Those should have fallen out long ago. Astvatsaturyan specifically mentions that Daghestani sabers only rarely had horn handles and that the handles often had an image of dog's, horse's or dragon's head carved into the end of the pommel. It is not there, and the tip is not "capped". The blade has no markings. Even though it looks real, the absense of markings is suspicious on the blades from this part of the world. Overall, I have far too many doubts about this sword: it is partly authentic but there is too much uncertainty and too many nagging suspicions and inconsistensies about it. If I bought it, I would have looked at it time and time again and trusted it less and less. One of my colleagues once married a stripper. Divorced her in 6 months to a year at very high financial cost. A cautionary tale for impulsive e-bay buyers..... On the other hand, look at the ivory-hilted saber on pic. #2: its twin recently sold on e-bay, and I missed it...... A real Georgian saber made by Purunsuzov or Eliarov at the beginning of the 19th century in Akhaltsikhe. I am still kicking myself...... Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 10th March 2006 at 02:23 AM.

7th March 2006, 08:51 AM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Nice karabela hitled shamshir That was nice! Ebay number: 6609336728 Attached Images

7th March 2006, 10:21 AM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	I'm afraid it's a rather poor modern copy. If you look carefully at the elements, you will see they are all drawn from different types of sword as well as from different periods... Ham

7th March 2006, 12:43 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a matter of fact, I wanted to post the same one for discussion, but.. heck! the glory goes to Valjhun! I fully agree with Ham: the silver crossguard is very Polish (Wolviex, can you hear me? Come and judge us!), but looks perfectly pristine. Nary a scratch! The handle is wood (could it have been so well preserved over the years?) and the incisions are very crude and not worn out. The blade has a Persian Qajar stamp dating it 20th century at the latest (I would not argue against 21st....) This sword saw as much action on the battlefield as my wife's manicure scissors. My guess it is a modern souvenir from Poland. That is fine, I have nothing against mementos (bought enough tee shirts and keychains myself), but for that price they could have thrown at least a case of Wyborowa into a deal!

7th March 2006, 02:19 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You might be right (I am sure you are!) about my Polish allusions. It might be of Turkish, Iranian or Syrian manufacture. I just prefer Wyborowa to Arak No matter what, I do not believe this sword is really old.

7th March 2006, 02:42 PM	#6
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	When I went to Syria in 2004, I saw many blades like this one, with fake Persian stamps, all newly made, but with horrible quality. Though I must say I never encountered any hilt like this in any bazaar over there.

8th March 2006, 07:35 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Ariel, First off, bravo Wyborowa but if you are going to bring up arak please specify good Turkish raki, the noblest of licorice intoxicants, eh? Well observed on this sword. The guard however, is not silver, it is cast aluminium or pewter. The blade is entirely suspect as well-- it may also be cast metal (did anyone think to have the seller put a magnet to it for that amount of money?) or the marks were applied with acid or machine tools. The grips are absolutely fresh wood, even the rivets show no wear. The quality of work coming out of Damascus is above this, they are lavishing things both old and new with koftgari and are beginning to get the hilt and scabbard elements right. This sword was probably made in India or perhaps in E. Europe (sorry for that, Michal.) Wherever a market exists, some enterprising sort will try to fill it, be it Tanjore or Tbilisi. Emptors must really caveat these days. Ham

9th March 2006, 01:07 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	BTW, I specifically asked the seller about the blade: he assured me it was real steel, full fighting quality, old etc, etc. As for Raki, my Greek friends would fight you to the end: Ouzo is the right stuff. Ever tried Lebanese Arak from Zahle? This is the top, no more arguments, please!!!!! Personally, I do not like Anise. I am into beer, vodka and Grappa (under whatever name it appears in different countries: Palinka, Tuika, Pisco, Rakijka, Loza, , Chacha... You name it)

9th March 2006, 01:19 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am 'thirsty"....

9th March 2006, 01:47 AM	#11
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Glad to see someone did the legwork, thank you Ariel. Now then as to Ouzo... are you suggesting drinking this and grappa? I find them most suitable for cleaning the odd Webley or Moisin Nagant. Now for the Wyborowa and good raki Cheers Ham

9th March 2006, 03:52 AM	#13
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Thank you for adding your voice to this matter, Rick. I consider it an important endorsement of the truth. I hope the new owner of the sword under discussion has something potent on hand. I suspect he is going to need it. Next up: eggs-- which end does the well-informed individual open first? Guest lecturer: Jonathan Swift Ham

9th March 2006, 05:28 AM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And now... for something completely different. Here is another one that just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 I love Caucasian weapons and always wanted to get a Daghestani sword (not shashka). And here was the one I wanted! However, I was a bit uncomfortable: the handle did not seem right. Daghestani swords rarely used horn, their pommels usually ended with a carved horse, dog or dragon , and this particular one looked kind of.... new. I contacted the seller and he assured me that it was original. Well....The blade looks overcleaned although there are traces of false damascening within the fullers What do you think? Did I make a mistake not bidding on the "dream of my life" ?

9th March 2006, 07:40 AM	#16
sabertasche Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 149	Wow guys, I almost bid on that sword! Ever since I joined the forum I've been looking for Eastern stuff and I thought I moight give it a try. I gave up when the bidding went stupid. I also found other "buy it now" blades without the mystery and in better shape with scabbards. I haven't bought them either as I haven't read the books yet to give me an informed decision on what to buy. I can wait...and learn from the forum Greg

9th March 2006, 06:06 PM	#18
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	well Ariel, we hadn't understood yupsss, maybe is the sliwowitza yupss, but I haven't bought that sword, as you can read in the other thread... I haven't liked it from the beginnig...

9th March 2006, 06:56 PM	#19
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	It should be borne in mind that the Khevsur are Georgians, albeit mountain dwellers. The familiar Khevsur sword mounted in strips of silver or brass (and later, even aluminium) is one type. However it is predated by the form of the sword Ariel didn't get. This was popular in Georgian urban centers and was adopted from the Persians-- I am sure Astvatsaturian shows examples in Weapons of the Caucasian Peoples...? Don't have a copy with me this time. The grip is not replaced, it is a characteristic example actually. Other than the odious recovering, which seems to represent some government directive carried out on every piece to exit the former Soviet states since Gorbachev, it is of the correct form-- this includes the mounts which, though crude, are traditional. Ham

10th March 2006, 04:49 AM	#21
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Getting back to the karabela being discussed here, I am inclined to agree with Ham, this floral guard seems cast. I also am inclined to this being quite possibly a modern product or furbishing of components done most likely in India. Regardless of where it was made or when, one cannot overlook the innate beauty of a karabela sabre. I have seen a modern interpretation of one of these crafted in Poland, and the high quality of the work certainly reflected the deep pride with which these historic sabres are held in thier country. Outstanding discussion on the Khevsur swords!!! I think it's excellent that we're finally getting some awareness and sound knowledge on these swords that were relatively unknown just over ten years ago. Best regards, Jim

10th March 2006, 07:34 AM	#22
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Well said, Jim. Members like yourself, Yannis and others have really opened up the subject of Khevsur arms and kept it going. Bravo Ariel, regarding this Khevsur sword-- it is such late work, you can't really abstract and attribute characteristics like the shape of the rings on the suspension bands anymore-- they are probably gas-welded on, in any case. It's a hodgepodge of elements. With this in mind however, it does shows some Kubachi influence as you suggest. Ham