Dating the Schiavons sword

Cathey · 1st April 2023, 02:03 AM

Hi urbanspaceman

Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with.

Cheers Cathey

urbanspaceman · 1st April 2023, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi urbanspaceman

Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with.

Cheers Cathey

A composite piece... yes. It is certainly a mess, but would still work.

Interested Party · 1st April 2023, 02:09 PM

Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt.

Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

urbanspaceman · 1st April 2023, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt.

Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

Interesting, isn't it?
Personal inclination is towards wide broadsword blades with chopping in mind. The length and strength helped when dealing with a typical munition's grade rapier.
I can understand why the Border Reivers coveted them.
I too think they are the most desirable of all swords and I am very keen to acquire one.

Cathey · 3rd April 2023, 03:25 AM

Just as an update, my article is almost finished now over 25 pages long. It appears to me through examination of about 140 examples that they may have been largely for infantry use very early. The Schiavonesca particularly appear to have been lighter and had shorter blades. Also the early suggestion of Infantry or Marine use could be applied to these early examples, pre the caged hilt and the early skeleton hilts.

However, it appears with the advent of the 30-year war that the Schiavona came into its own as a cavalry weapon. Curtaining in the 17th and 18th Centuries blades on average are long and wide, more suited to cavalry than infantry. They also seem to have transitioned from a general use broadsword, through to what I would describe as a riding sword (similar to a rapier but with a much broader and heavier blade) through to the Rapier with a narrower blade and a longer ricasso.

Looking at my late 18th century example, I can not imagine trying to fence with this weapon, but from horseback it would have been most effective.

Cheers Cathey.

Cathey · 15th April 2023, 06:00 AM

I am attempting to bring my article for the Heritage Arms Society on the Schiavona to the finish line, then I found a reference to a metal rain cap. Has anyone heard of these before or have any reference material on them they would be prepared to share. Here is a picture of one. It appears to be a metal shaped plate fitted to the bottom so the guard with screws, I can't find any mention of it in my existing references other than a book by Andrew Garcia.

Cheers Cathey

urbanspaceman · 15th April 2023, 08:42 AM

Here's another one on this luxurious sword.
It looks like an aftermarket addition and it is very ugly in my opinion.
Anyone who owned this sword is unlikely to be out in the rain without an umbrellahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif
BTW. I still think this is a wootz blade or Bulat at least.
ps
I also do not think it would really be of any use; I can think of other simpler, prettier ways of keeping the rain off the blade.

urbanspaceman · 5th June 2023, 06:08 PM

Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?

werecow · 5th June 2023, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?

Are you sure it wasn't sent? I tried PM-ing Cathey a week or so ago but did not get a response either. I just assumed it went unnoticed.

Also, as much as I'm interested in discussing it as it is the first flamberge schiavona I've come across, please note that the sword above is still in auction until the 16th.

EDIT: This might explain the issue with unnoticed PMs.

urbanspaceman · 5th June 2023, 06:34 PM

I looked in my 'SENT' folder and it was not there. Did you check yours Werecow.
I'm not certain what, precisely, defines forbidden in regard to auctions. I assumed as no auction house name was mentioned it was ok but I will certainly bow to contradictions.

fernando · 5th June 2023, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

... Also, as much as I'm interested in discussing it as it is the first flamberge schiavona I've come across, please note that the sword above is still in auction until the 16th...

Noted ... and deleted. Thanks for the warning.

1st April 2023, 02:03 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	Strange Schiavona for auction Hi urbanspaceman Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with. Cheers Cathey

1st April 2023, 02:09 PM	#3
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 392	lenght of handle Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt. Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

3rd April 2023, 03:25 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	Schiavona Infantry or cavalry Just as an update, my article is almost finished now over 25 pages long. It appears to me through examination of about 140 examples that they may have been largely for infantry use very early. The Schiavonesca particularly appear to have been lighter and had shorter blades. Also the early suggestion of Infantry or Marine use could be applied to these early examples, pre the caged hilt and the early skeleton hilts. However, it appears with the advent of the 30-year war that the Schiavona came into its own as a cavalry weapon. Curtaining in the 17th and 18th Centuries blades on average are long and wide, more suited to cavalry than infantry. They also seem to have transitioned from a general use broadsword, through to what I would describe as a riding sword (similar to a rapier but with a much broader and heavier blade) through to the Rapier with a narrower blade and a longer ricasso. Looking at my late 18th century example, I can not imagine trying to fence with this weapon, but from horseback it would have been most effective. Cheers Cathey.

15th April 2023, 06:00 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	metal rain cap I am attempting to bring my article for the Heritage Arms Society on the Schiavona to the finish line, then I found a reference to a metal rain cap. Has anyone heard of these before or have any reference material on them they would be prepared to share. Here is a picture of one. It appears to be a metal shaped plate fitted to the bottom so the guard with screws, I can't find any mention of it in my existing references other than a book by Andrew Garcia. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

15th April 2023, 08:42 AM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	rain cap picture Here's another one on this luxurious sword. It looks like an aftermarket addition and it is very ugly in my opinion. Anyone who owned this sword is unlikely to be out in the rain without an umbrellahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif BTW. I still think this is a wootz blade or Bulat at least. ps I also do not think it would really be of any use; I can think of other simpler, prettier ways of keeping the rain off the blade. Attached Images Last edited by urbanspaceman; 15th April 2023 at 08:44 AM. Reason: ps

5th June 2023, 06:08 PM	#8
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Private Message Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?

5th June 2023, 06:34 PM	#10
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	pm problem I looked in my 'SENT' folder and it was not there. Did you check yours Werecow. I'm not certain what, precisely, defines forbidden in regard to auctions. I assumed as no auction house name was mentioned it was ok but I will certainly bow to contradictions.