Javanese keris / reshaped or not.

asomotif · 21st November 2009, 11:57 PM

I bougth this javanese keris last weekend and looking better at the blade I wonder if this shape is all original ?

Henk · 22nd November 2009, 09:49 AM

I see what you mean. It looks indeed reshaped. How does the blade fit in the scabbard?

asomotif · 22nd November 2009, 09:54 PM

Hi Henk,

The fit is perfect considering the age of the scabbard.

Rick · 22nd November 2009, 09:59 PM

Let's consider that it was a cultural practice to smooth out really ragged edges on an old keris .

This work was only supposed to be done by a very talented keris maker .

So it could have been done some time ago or fairly recently .

I do not posess the knowledge to judge either way .

asomotif · 22nd November 2009, 10:11 PM

Dear Rick,

Yes I realise that smoothing out the edges could have been a good reason.
But in its present state the blade has a set of "shoulders".
I wonder if this is something that is good craftsmanship, or maybe this set of shoulders is not OK ?

I have tried to give my impression in drawing of wrong (red) and right(green).
As you can see, I am a total dummy with the "paint" program.

Rick · 22nd November 2009, 10:37 PM

Yes, it looks to me like these 'shoulders continued down the blade to some degree; possibly when new, all the way .
Age and warangan, then smoothing has removed them .
Or .........

asomotif · 22nd November 2009, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Or .........

Dear Rick,
Yes, the "or" version concerns me.
Maybe someone deliberately made the blade narrow.
That is why I posted the piece here, hoping that someone can give me a clue by there/his/hers knowledge of dapurs.

I will try to make some better pictures with daylight.
Maybe that can shed somelight into it

Gustav · 22nd November 2009, 11:30 PM

Probably there is a possibility this keris had have pudak sategal? (but most probably, with this dapur, not)

(Then, this have nothing to do with Javanese keris, you can see something similar in "Keris di Lombok" on page 184)

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2009, 12:19 AM

Gustav, I think that blade in Djelengga has probably also had its edges cleaned up. I don't know of any standard dhapur in either Javanese or Balinese keris that have this shoulder.

I also do not think that we are looking at remnant pudak setegal, because pudak setegal are usually found on blades with kembang kacang --- but if we are diluar Pakem, anything is possible.

I believe that the m'ranggi who cleaned up this blade left the shoulders in the blade to avoid the very time consuming work that would have been involved if he had gone any further into the sorsoran. Maybe he was working on a budget, maybe the value of the blade was not sufficient to justify the work involved in reshaping the sorsoran, maybe he didn't have a sufficient level of skill to go any further. I don't know the base reason why he stopped where he did, but I do know that to go any further would involve a lot of skill and a lot of time.

21st November 2009, 11:57 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Javanese keris / reshaped or not. I bougth this javanese keris last weekend and looking better at the blade I wonder if this shape is all original ? Attached Images

22nd November 2009, 09:54 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hi Henk, The fit is perfect considering the age of the scabbard. Attached Images

22nd November 2009, 10:11 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Dear Rick, Yes I realise that smoothing out the edges could have been a good reason. But in its present state the blade has a set of "shoulders". I wonder if this is something that is good craftsmanship, or maybe this set of shoulders is not OK ? I have tried to give my impression in drawing of wrong (red) and right(green). As you can see, I am a total dummy with the "paint" program. Attached Images

22nd November 2009, 11:30 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Probably there is a possibility this keris had have pudak sategal? (but most probably, with this dapur, not) (Then, this have nothing to do with Javanese keris, you can see something similar in "Keris di Lombok" on page 184) Last edited by Gustav; 23rd November 2009 at 12:10 AM.

22nd November 2009, 09:49 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I see what you mean. It looks indeed reshaped. How does the blade fit in the scabbard?

22nd November 2009, 09:59 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Let's consider that it was a cultural practice to smooth out really ragged edges on an old keris . This work was only supposed to be done by a very talented keris maker . So it could have been done some time ago or fairly recently . I do not posess the knowledge to judge either way .

22nd November 2009, 10:37 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Yes, it looks to me like these 'shoulders continued down the blade to some degree; possibly when new, all the way . Age and warangan, then smoothing has removed them . Or .........

23rd November 2009, 12:19 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Gustav, I think that blade in Djelengga has probably also had its edges cleaned up. I don't know of any standard dhapur in either Javanese or Balinese keris that have this shoulder. I also do not think that we are looking at remnant pudak setegal, because pudak setegal are usually found on blades with kembang kacang --- but if we are diluar Pakem, anything is possible. I believe that the m'ranggi who cleaned up this blade left the shoulders in the blade to avoid the very time consuming work that would have been involved if he had gone any further into the sorsoran. Maybe he was working on a budget, maybe the value of the blade was not sufficient to justify the work involved in reshaping the sorsoran, maybe he didn't have a sufficient level of skill to go any further. I don't know the base reason why he stopped where he did, but I do know that to go any further would involve a lot of skill and a lot of time.