South African Navaja for comment

Battara · 3rd March 2006, 02:33 AM

Rsword suggested months ago that I post this puppy. I got this years ago when I first started collecting. It is a clasp knife Navaja, but with white horn and African patterned brass mounts. On one side there are heavily worn engravings of either acorns or pineapples, and on the other side there is an engraved inscription in cursive: "Van aboor in varen" which I had a friend from South Africa translate from the Afrikaans ""From a true Boer" . Had someone else date it years ago to possibly the 1830s around the time of the Great Trek in South Africa. Enjoy.

RobT · 3rd March 2006, 03:21 AM

Hi Battara,
I instantly recognised your navaja because I have one that, with one important exception, is very similar to yours. The inscription on mine says "Soy Anda de Sevilla". Other than this, the blades look like siblings. Mine has some brass inlay on the hilt scales (the center inlay is missing) but the shape of the blade, bolster, and butt cap are just like yours. Even the engraving on the side opposite the inscription looks like yours. Given these similarities I wonder if these blades were produced by the same company and variously engraved to appeal to specific ethnic clientelle. The backspring on mine is missing. Could you post pictures of yours? I would like to make a backspring but I need to know what it originally looked like.
Sincerely,
RobT

ingelred · 3rd March 2006, 12:44 PM

hello,

this is not an African but a Spain / Sevilla navaja.
You may take a look at these for comparison:

http://www.couteaux-jfl.com/seville.htm

Greetings, Helge

Battara · 4th March 2006, 07:58 PM

Oh yes I agree in that it was orginally made in Spain and exported or found its way to South Africa. The "boor" spelling is an alternative Afrikaans spelling of "Boer". I will see what I can do in the extra photos.

Chris Evans · 5th March 2006, 03:48 AM

Hi Battara,

That is almost certainly a Spanish navaja, and given its general shape, most likely from Sevilla. According to samples given in Forton's Navajas Antiguas, it was probably made in the late 19th century, at a time when the navaja was on its way out of usage in Spain and the few cutlers that remained tried to sell their wares in the remaining Spanish colonies. How that one ended up with the Afrikaans inscription is a bit of a mystery as the blades were generally etch engraved before the knife was assembled. It could have been custom made in Spain for a Boer customer, or alternatively, the etched engraving could have been added later

There is always the possibility, though remote, that that knife was made not in Spain, but elsewhere, as they were made in many parts of the world, as afar as India, their basic construction being very low tech, though quite labour intensive - Perhaps by a Spanish cutler who migrated to S.Africa. The style of engraving on the bolsters and the blade strongly suggests Spanish workmanship.

On second thought, are you sure that inscription is in Afrikaans and not misspelled Spanish? Those cutlers were for most part illiterate and their spelling was notoriously bad - Those words could overlap with misspelled Spanish.

Cheers
Chris Evans

Battara · 5th March 2006, 10:33 PM

I am quite sure it is Afrikaans, especially since I am somewhat familiar with Afrikaans and even more familiar with Spanish. I think the message was engraved later than the manufacture of the blade.

Chris Evans · 7th March 2006, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I am quite sure it is Afrikaans, especially since I am somewhat familiar with Afrikaans and even more familiar with Spanish. I think the message was engraved later than the manufacture of the blade.

Well, you certainly have a most unusual and collectable navaja.

Cheers
Chris

RSWORD · 7th March 2006, 03:50 AM

Actually, Jose, I made that request several years ago.

fernando · 7th March 2006, 08:59 PM

Sorry to interfere.
It is indeed fascinating that this spanish navaja ended up in SouthAfrica.
Forton assures that national production was so short, comparing to local demans that, in fact, during 1850-1869 ( there are no prior registration records ) Spain has imported an average ( imagine ) one million navajas per year ... no razor specimens included ( the name navaja actually comes from a type of razor blade ). Instead, their exports were minimum and practically directed to Portugal.
So hardly this is a trade piece ?
I have resided in Durban for a couple years, working with Afrikaaner coleagues. Their language is fascinating, both sound and construction wise.
But it appears that afrikaans started to be written in Latin alphabet long after the Boer war, like around 1850... as it was written in Arabic before, for circumstancial reasons. Could it be that the inscription is from an iliterate ( like the majority at the time ? ) doing "verbal" writting ?. Couldn't an "official" text be close to VAN A BOER (IN) WAAR ?.
But then, if this specimen is "from a true Boer", doesn't this mean this is a presentation navaja, from a Boer to somebody, probably another Boer?
Such an interesting piece.
Sorry again to have interfered.

Battara · 7th March 2006, 09:19 PM

Oh no interference at all Fernando. In fact, you hit the nail on the head. I agree that the inscription was done by someone who could very well be illiterate and presented to another Boer.

Afrikaans in Arabic script - who knew?

"Several years ago" - good point Rick.

fernando · 8th March 2006, 12:17 AM

one, but not only, quick source

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/afrikaans.htm

Battara · 8th March 2006, 01:35 AM

Nice link Fernando, thank you.

Chris Evans · 8th March 2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

one, but not only, quick source

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/afrikaans.htm

Hola Fernando,

Thanks for that link and your comments. One learns something new every day; And I always thought that Afrikaans was written and read in the Roman alphabet - Goes to show how wrong one can be.

You are most right in your reading of Forton. What fascinates me is the number of navajas, pre 1850, that were made in France. Of course, we'll never know, but it is an interesting speculation. Perhaps the whole 19th century, at least after the Napoleonic wars and as far as the navaja is concerned, belongs to France and not to Spain.

Cheers
Chris

fernando · 8th March 2006, 09:21 PM

Olá Chris
Have you the Forton book translated, or can you comprehend Spanish writing ? In the satistical part about imports, he reminds that three quarters of those millions of navajas brought in, were indeed French. He also admits that by mid end 19th century, several countries had their cuttlers making navajas, but visibly giving a Spanish approach to their shape.
In another part of the book he considers that, before this period and, as far these devices evoluted from razors in the 16-17th century, the specific Navaja, with all its contents and meanning ( as to differentiate it from the common utensile pocket knife ... ) is original and tipically Spanish.
More or less that, right ?

Chris Evans · 9th March 2006, 01:48 AM

Hi Fernando,

I read Spanish pretty well and have read all of Forton's works. I am a collector of navajas and made a study of them, as well as that of the South American Facon (their usage is inter-related). You can do a search for my earlier posts on these subjects.

Yes, the Spaniards claim that they invented the concept of the "navaja" and that due to the weapon bans their cutlers went to other parts of Europe taking their invention with them, and these eventually found their way back to Spain by way of imports. Personally, I find this a little hard to believe, though do not rule it out entirely, because the basic concept was so simple that with the then extant advances in locks any European nation could make them withe ease.

I suppose what we really have to do is is to establish whether the Spaniards introduced weapon bans first in Europe or if other nations introduced them before or around the same time. My reason for taking this approach is that as long as fixed bladed knives, not to mention swords, were permitted, then the reason for making an inferior (in every respect) folding knife would not have been there. In this respect I am totally in agreement with Forton who makes the same assertion that the navaja could only make its stage debut after the weapon bans.

Cheers
Chris

rugantino · 23rd March 2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

The backspring on mine is missing. Could you post pictures of yours? I would like to make a backspring but I need to know what it originally looked like.
Sincerely,
RobT

see here: the first is relatively simple, the second is file worded: choose the model you want according with the style of your navaja

RobT · 27th March 2006, 05:38 AM

Thanks rugantino for the backspring info. I'll get some spring steel and make one up.
Sincerely,
RobT

Battara · 28th March 2006, 08:10 PM

It has been difficult to get someone to loan me their digital camera. My navaja back spring is exactly like the second one of Rugantino's.

3rd March 2006, 02:33 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	South African Navaja for comment Rsword suggested months ago that I post this puppy. I got this years ago when I first started collecting. It is a clasp knife Navaja, but with white horn and African patterned brass mounts. On one side there are heavily worn engravings of either acorns or pineapples, and on the other side there is an engraved inscription in cursive: "Van aboor in varen" which I had a friend from South Africa translate from the Afrikaans ""From a true Boer" . Had someone else date it years ago to possibly the 1830s around the time of the Great Trek in South Africa. Enjoy. Attached Images

3rd March 2006, 03:21 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 494	Strange Coincidence Hi Battara, I instantly recognised your navaja because I have one that, with one important exception, is very similar to yours. The inscription on mine says "Soy Anda de Sevilla". Other than this, the blades look like siblings. Mine has some brass inlay on the hilt scales (the center inlay is missing) but the shape of the blade, bolster, and butt cap are just like yours. Even the engraving on the side opposite the inscription looks like yours. Given these similarities I wonder if these blades were produced by the same company and variously engraved to appeal to specific ethnic clientelle. The backspring on mine is missing. Could you post pictures of yours? I would like to make a backspring but I need to know what it originally looked like. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 3rd March 2006 at 03:27 AM. Reason: additional information

5th March 2006, 03:48 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	Hi Battara, That is almost certainly a Spanish navaja, and given its general shape, most likely from Sevilla. According to samples given in Forton's Navajas Antiguas, it was probably made in the late 19th century, at a time when the navaja was on its way out of usage in Spain and the few cutlers that remained tried to sell their wares in the remaining Spanish colonies. How that one ended up with the Afrikaans inscription is a bit of a mystery as the blades were generally etch engraved before the knife was assembled. It could have been custom made in Spain for a Boer customer, or alternatively, the etched engraving could have been added later There is always the possibility, though remote, that that knife was made not in Spain, but elsewhere, as they were made in many parts of the world, as afar as India, their basic construction being very low tech, though quite labour intensive - Perhaps by a Spanish cutler who migrated to S.Africa. The style of engraving on the bolsters and the blade strongly suggests Spanish workmanship. On second thought, are you sure that inscription is in Afrikaans and not misspelled Spanish? Those cutlers were for most part illiterate and their spelling was notoriously bad - Those words could overlap with misspelled Spanish. Cheers Chris Evans Last edited by Chris Evans; 5th March 2006 at 10:05 AM.

27th March 2006, 05:38 AM	#17
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 494	Thanks for the Info Thanks rugantino for the backspring info. I'll get some spring steel and make one up. Sincerely, RobT

3rd March 2006, 12:44 PM	#3
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	hello, this is not an African but a Spain / Sevilla navaja. You may take a look at these for comparison: http://www.couteaux-jfl.com/seville.htm Greetings, Helge

4th March 2006, 07:58 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Oh yes I agree in that it was orginally made in Spain and exported or found its way to South Africa. The "boor" spelling is an alternative Afrikaans spelling of "Boer". I will see what I can do in the extra photos.

5th March 2006, 10:33 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I am quite sure it is Afrikaans, especially since I am somewhat familiar with Afrikaans and even more familiar with Spanish. I think the message was engraved later than the manufacture of the blade.

7th March 2006, 03:50 AM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Actually, Jose, I made that request several years ago.

7th March 2006, 08:59 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry to interfere. It is indeed fascinating that this spanish navaja ended up in SouthAfrica. Forton assures that national production was so short, comparing to local demans that, in fact, during 1850-1869 ( there are no prior registration records ) Spain has imported an average ( imagine ) one million navajas per year ... no razor specimens included ( the name navaja actually comes from a type of razor blade ). Instead, their exports were minimum and practically directed to Portugal. So hardly this is a trade piece ? I have resided in Durban for a couple years, working with Afrikaaner coleagues. Their language is fascinating, both sound and construction wise. But it appears that afrikaans started to be written in Latin alphabet long after the Boer war, like around 1850... as it was written in Arabic before, for circumstancial reasons. Could it be that the inscription is from an iliterate ( like the majority at the time ? ) doing "verbal" writting ?. Couldn't an "official" text be close to VAN A BOER (IN) WAAR ?. But then, if this specimen is "from a true Boer", doesn't this mean this is a presentation navaja, from a Boer to somebody, probably another Boer? Such an interesting piece. Sorry again to have interfered.

7th March 2006, 09:19 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Oh no interference at all Fernando. In fact, you hit the nail on the head. I agree that the inscription was done by someone who could very well be illiterate and presented to another Boer. Afrikaans in Arabic script - who knew? "Several years ago" - good point Rick.

8th March 2006, 12:17 AM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	one, but not only, quick source http://www.omniglot.com/writing/afrikaans.htm

8th March 2006, 01:35 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Nice link Fernando, thank you.

8th March 2006, 09:21 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Olá Chris Have you the Forton book translated, or can you comprehend Spanish writing ? In the satistical part about imports, he reminds that three quarters of those millions of navajas brought in, were indeed French. He also admits that by mid end 19th century, several countries had their cuttlers making navajas, but visibly giving a Spanish approach to their shape. In another part of the book he considers that, before this period and, as far these devices evoluted from razors in the 16-17th century, the specific Navaja, with all its contents and meanning ( as to differentiate it from the common utensile pocket knife ... ) is original and tipically Spanish. More or less that, right ?

9th March 2006, 01:48 AM	#15
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	Hi Fernando, I read Spanish pretty well and have read all of Forton's works. I am a collector of navajas and made a study of them, as well as that of the South American Facon (their usage is inter-related). You can do a search for my earlier posts on these subjects. Yes, the Spaniards claim that they invented the concept of the "navaja" and that due to the weapon bans their cutlers went to other parts of Europe taking their invention with them, and these eventually found their way back to Spain by way of imports. Personally, I find this a little hard to believe, though do not rule it out entirely, because the basic concept was so simple that with the then extant advances in locks any European nation could make them withe ease. I suppose what we really have to do is is to establish whether the Spaniards introduced weapon bans first in Europe or if other nations introduced them before or around the same time. My reason for taking this approach is that as long as fixed bladed knives, not to mention swords, were permitted, then the reason for making an inferior (in every respect) folding knife would not have been there. In this respect I am totally in agreement with Forton who makes the same assertion that the navaja could only make its stage debut after the weapon bans. Cheers Chris

28th March 2006, 08:10 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	It has been difficult to get someone to loan me their digital camera. My navaja back spring is exactly like the second one of Rugantino's.