Unknown Philippine weapon, cane cutter ??

drac2k · 26th February 2014, 01:22 AM

I recently purchased this item and I guessing that it is from the Philippines.The blade measures approx. 12.25 " and it is wider than 2 " at it's greatest width.The ferrule appears to be ivory or bone. The scabbard is comprised of 2 pieces held together, not by nails, but wooden or bone dowel pins.I would guess the age to be from WW2 to the early 1960's.
Any opinions would be appreciated.

kai · 26th February 2014, 02:04 AM

This is Batak (Sumatra), one of the most copied cultures in SEA (for already well over 100 years and still ongoing from places like Medan to Bali).

Quote:

I would guess the age to be from WW2 to the early 1960's.

The fittings look "modern" - post-WW2 up to recent (if artificially aged). I'm less sure about the age of the blade though (base features may have been added later).

I can't remember having seen any antique example; this doesn't mean much though since not many pieces are likely to have survived...

Try to search museum collections for resembling examples!

Regards,
Kai

drac2k · 26th February 2014, 02:48 AM

Thanks, that will be a good place for me to start to look.I agree that the fittings "appear," to be much newer than the blade.

VANDOO · 26th February 2014, 06:36 AM

THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE FROM A COMMON TOOL SOLD CHEAPLY THRUOUT INDONESIA. IT USUALLY HAS A PLAIN WOOD HANDLE AND NO SCABBARD AND IS USED MUCH LIKE A PARANG OR BRUSH HOOK. THIS BLADE HAS THE USUAL MARKINGS BUT HAS BEEN REWORKED SOME ALONG THE SPINE.
THE CARVING HAS GOOD BATAK FIGURES AND IS WELL DONE BUT ARTIFICALLY AGED. I DON'T KNOW IF THESE SEE ACTUAL USE IN THE CULTURE OR ARE JUST MADE FOR SALE TO COLLECTORS AND TOURISTS. THE WOOD CARVING FOLLOWS TRADITIONAL FORM BUT THE BLADE DOES NOT FIT WITH THE CARVING OR COME UP TO THE STANDARDS OF THE CARVING.
IT IS ATTRACTIVE AND A GOOD EXAMPLE OF WOOD CARVING AND BATAK DESIGN BUT LIKELY INTENDED AS A NICE WALL HANGER.

drac2k · 26th February 2014, 02:00 PM

Thanks for the reply.I agree that the blade is much older than the fittings and that it was probably a bush ax or something. I thought this item could date as late as the 1960's and was most likely brought back by some tourist or soldier, but I don't see the piece as being artificially aged ; also too much care has gone into making this, such as the carvings and the dowels used in the scabbard, as opposed to brass pins or cut nails.It may not be old, but I don't see this item as "put together," to fool anyone. I look at this tool as a unusual example of "folk art," and if I had any space left, a "wall hanger," as previously stated.

VANDOO · 26th February 2014, 05:11 PM

THE FACE CARVED ON THE SCABBARD IS A SINGA AND IS IN USE IN THE BATAK CULTURE. SEARCH FOR SINGA FOR MORE INFO. THE COLOR OF THE BONE FERRULE IS CONSISTANT WITH STAINING AND SMOKEING WHICH IS A COMMON PRACTICE ON IVORY AND BONE IN QUITE A FEW COUNTRIES. I SEEM TO REMEMBER A OLD POST OR ARTICLE WITH PICTURES ON HOW IT IS DONE. I LIKE THE ITEM AND IF THE PRICE WAS RIGHT WOULD LIKELY HAVE PICKED ONE UP MYSELF BECAUSE OF THE WORKMANSHIP AND THE UNUSUAL BLADE FORM USED.

drac2k · 26th February 2014, 09:11 PM

Thanks Vandoo. The price was pretty reasonable at auction, but after the commission and the freight, the item was the cheapest part of the transaction.

drac2k · 27th February 2014, 12:48 PM

After some good research suggestions from the forum, I did some preliminary investigations on Indonesian weapons and I was surprised to see the range of sickle type swords used. My item looked somewhat like (not exactly), what was listed as a Pencak Silat fight sickle, a celurit, a carok, or a kujang.
Am I on the right path or lost in the trail of wishful thinking ?

VANDOO · 4th March 2014, 03:25 AM

YOUR ITEM PROBABLY DOES FALL INTO ONE OF THOSE CURVED BLADED FORMS YOU MENTION. BUT IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO PLACE IT IN ONE CATEGORY AND I AM SURE THERE WOULD BE DIFERENCES OF OPINION.
I WOULD ELIMINATE THE KUDI FORM FROM THE LIST OF POSIBILITYS BUT THE RANGE OF VARIATION I ALLOW FOR THAT FORM MAY NOT BE THE SAME AS OTHERS.
THE MOST LIKELY ORIGION FOR THE ITEM WOULD BE INDONESIA OR MALAYSIA IN THAT ORDER. HIGH SHIPPING COSTS HAS LIMITED THE NUMBER OF COUNTRIES I CAN BUY FROM AS WELL. IT IS WORKING IN FAVOR OF COLLECTORS IN AUSTRALIA WHEN THE DEALERS ARE IN AUSTRALIA FOR NOW AS THE FAIR BID PRICE IS OFTEN DOUBBLED WITH FORIGN S&H. THATS GOOD FOR THEM AS IT KEEPS ALL THEIR GOODIES FROM LEAVING THE COUNTRY.

26th February 2014, 01:22 AM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Unknown Philippine weapon, cane cutter ?? I recently purchased this item and I guessing that it is from the Philippines.The blade measures approx. 12.25 " and it is wider than 2 " at it's greatest width.The ferrule appears to be ivory or bone. The scabbard is comprised of 2 pieces held together, not by nails, but wooden or bone dowel pins.I would guess the age to be from WW2 to the early 1960's. Any opinions would be appreciated. Attached Images

26th February 2014, 02:48 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks, that will be a good place for me to start to look.I agree that the fittings "appear," to be much newer than the blade.

26th February 2014, 06:36 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE FROM A COMMON TOOL SOLD CHEAPLY THRUOUT INDONESIA. IT USUALLY HAS A PLAIN WOOD HANDLE AND NO SCABBARD AND IS USED MUCH LIKE A PARANG OR BRUSH HOOK. THIS BLADE HAS THE USUAL MARKINGS BUT HAS BEEN REWORKED SOME ALONG THE SPINE. THE CARVING HAS GOOD BATAK FIGURES AND IS WELL DONE BUT ARTIFICALLY AGED. I DON'T KNOW IF THESE SEE ACTUAL USE IN THE CULTURE OR ARE JUST MADE FOR SALE TO COLLECTORS AND TOURISTS. THE WOOD CARVING FOLLOWS TRADITIONAL FORM BUT THE BLADE DOES NOT FIT WITH THE CARVING OR COME UP TO THE STANDARDS OF THE CARVING. IT IS ATTRACTIVE AND A GOOD EXAMPLE OF WOOD CARVING AND BATAK DESIGN BUT LIKELY INTENDED AS A NICE WALL HANGER.

26th February 2014, 02:00 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks for the reply.I agree that the blade is much older than the fittings and that it was probably a bush ax or something. I thought this item could date as late as the 1960's and was most likely brought back by some tourist or soldier, but I don't see the piece as being artificially aged ; also too much care has gone into making this, such as the carvings and the dowels used in the scabbard, as opposed to brass pins or cut nails.It may not be old, but I don't see this item as "put together," to fool anyone. I look at this tool as a unusual example of "folk art," and if I had any space left, a "wall hanger," as previously stated.

26th February 2014, 05:11 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE FACE CARVED ON THE SCABBARD IS A SINGA AND IS IN USE IN THE BATAK CULTURE. SEARCH FOR SINGA FOR MORE INFO. THE COLOR OF THE BONE FERRULE IS CONSISTANT WITH STAINING AND SMOKEING WHICH IS A COMMON PRACTICE ON IVORY AND BONE IN QUITE A FEW COUNTRIES. I SEEM TO REMEMBER A OLD POST OR ARTICLE WITH PICTURES ON HOW IT IS DONE. I LIKE THE ITEM AND IF THE PRICE WAS RIGHT WOULD LIKELY HAVE PICKED ONE UP MYSELF BECAUSE OF THE WORKMANSHIP AND THE UNUSUAL BLADE FORM USED.

26th February 2014, 09:11 PM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks Vandoo. The price was pretty reasonable at auction, but after the commission and the freight, the item was the cheapest part of the transaction.

27th February 2014, 12:48 PM	#8
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	After some good research suggestions from the forum, I did some preliminary investigations on Indonesian weapons and I was surprised to see the range of sickle type swords used. My item looked somewhat like (not exactly), what was listed as a Pencak Silat fight sickle, a celurit, a carok, or a kujang. Am I on the right path or lost in the trail of wishful thinking ?

4th March 2014, 03:25 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOUR ITEM PROBABLY DOES FALL INTO ONE OF THOSE CURVED BLADED FORMS YOU MENTION. BUT IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO PLACE IT IN ONE CATEGORY AND I AM SURE THERE WOULD BE DIFERENCES OF OPINION. I WOULD ELIMINATE THE KUDI FORM FROM THE LIST OF POSIBILITYS BUT THE RANGE OF VARIATION I ALLOW FOR THAT FORM MAY NOT BE THE SAME AS OTHERS. THE MOST LIKELY ORIGION FOR THE ITEM WOULD BE INDONESIA OR MALAYSIA IN THAT ORDER. HIGH SHIPPING COSTS HAS LIMITED THE NUMBER OF COUNTRIES I CAN BUY FROM AS WELL. IT IS WORKING IN FAVOR OF COLLECTORS IN AUSTRALIA WHEN THE DEALERS ARE IN AUSTRALIA FOR NOW AS THE FAIR BID PRICE IS OFTEN DOUBBLED WITH FORIGN S&H. THATS GOOD FOR THEM AS IT KEEPS ALL THEIR GOODIES FROM LEAVING THE COUNTRY.