another dagger but from where ...?

gp · 4th October 2021, 10:49 PM

total lenght is 50 cm and the scabbard is velvet

what looks strange to me is the horse's expression?

totally different from the Kauhava knives I know...

can any one tell me more ?
it's origin, age, etc....

thnx a lot

greetz from NL

Gunar

Rich · 4th October 2021, 11:18 PM

Definitely not a Kauhava Puukko

TVV · 4th October 2021, 11:51 PM

It looks Indian to me, in imitation of older horse handle khanjars, though not antique.

Battara · 5th October 2021, 02:19 AM

I would agree with TVV - from India but not an antique

mariusgmioc · 5th October 2021, 11:06 AM

Indian or Pakistani, 20th century work, most likely for foreign collector/tourist market.

They are still made these days, usually with low quality pattern welded blades. Just eBay "mughal horse dagger" and you'll see what I mean. Almost all that advertise wootz blades are shameless fakes with pattern welded low quality blades.

gp · 5th October 2021, 07:59 PM

thnx a lot gents for identifying and clarifying this !

Edster · 6th October 2021, 03:35 PM

Even though the dagger is not "authentic", I find the horse's expression very appealing from maybe a folkart perspective. Art is really where you find it. Is the horse cast metal or carved wood with metal-like paint under the decorative work?

Ed

gp · 6th October 2021, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Even though the dagger is not "authentic", I find the horse's expression very appealing from maybe a folkart perspective. Art is really where you find it. Is the horse cast metal or carved wood with metal-like paint under the decorative work?

Ed

that (horse's expression) is what caught my attention indeed. Rather unconventional but attractive in its own way I dare say.
And the horse cast being complete metal with a reasonable price it was going going gone

mariusgmioc · 6th October 2021, 09:14 PM

I feel the need to straighten up some issues.

These daggers are made in India (and Pakistan) in fairly traditional ways, and are based on historical antique examples.

So, in my opinion they are as authentic as they can be and personally consider them very nice and collectable. They are even "mughal" in style and inspiration.

I like them so much that when I was in India, I bought several as presents for friends.

The problem appears only when they are deceptively sold as "antique" and/or "wootz" and thus become fakes.

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2021, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Even though the dagger is not "authentic", I find the horse's expression very appealing from maybe a folkart perspective. Art is really where you find it. Is the horse cast metal or carved wood with metal-like paint under the decorative work?

Ed

I really like this perspective Ed, and perfectly expressed as always.
I have never cared much for the dismissive classification 'tourist' , though I know many pieces are pretty awful in their demeanor. However items made in representation of traditional forms, and themes which are simply trying to carry forward artistic versions of the culture., seem worthy of collection and note.

Edster · 8th October 2021, 01:11 AM

Thanks, Jim. We agree. Many attractive ethnographic arms worthy of collecting continue to be made to satisfy the collector market when they may be declining as cultural expressions in their native context. The Omani Jambiya and the Sudanese Kaskara are just two examples, maybe Indian arms as well. Is an Omani Jambiya bought in a shop by a traveler in an Omani suq any less "authentic" than the same collected in a remote village, a salon in London or one delivered by Amazon Prime. Of course the quality of workmanship, "new" vs. "old" should be paired with provenance and chain of custody to play a critical part in defining high-end collector value.

Also, many collectors and "appreciators" of fine ethnographic weapons are likely attracted by the artistic quality of the item. For the jambiya it's the scabbard and belt. The swords of Moroland variability of form is in the blade shape. We often go for the bling added by silversmiths and other artists after the functional quality of a weapon has been established. The same holds for the weapons original owner who had the piece embellished to satisfy ego and/or establish prestige. New or old, used or fresh from the craft shop, I believe that it's the quality of the art as we see it that largely defines our attraction.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Ed

4th October 2021, 10:49 PM	#1
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 717	another dagger but from where ...? total lenght is 50 cm and the scabbard is velvet what looks strange to me is the horse's expression? totally different from the Kauhava knives I know... can any one tell me more ? it's origin, age, etc.... thnx a lot greetz from NL Gunar Attached Images

5th October 2021, 11:06 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Indian or Pakistani, 20th century work, most likely for foreign collector/tourist market. They are still made these days, usually with low quality pattern welded blades. Just eBay "mughal horse dagger" and you'll see what I mean. Almost all that advertise wootz blades are shameless fakes with pattern welded low quality blades. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 5th October 2021 at 02:01 PM.

6th October 2021, 09:14 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	I feel the need to straighten up some issues. These daggers are made in India (and Pakistan) in fairly traditional ways, and are based on historical antique examples. So, in my opinion they are as authentic as they can be and personally consider them very nice and collectable. They are even "mughal" in style and inspiration. I like them so much that when I was in India, I bought several as presents for friends. The problem appears only when they are deceptively sold as "antique" and/or "wootz" and thus become fakes. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 6th October 2021 at 09:50 PM.

4th October 2021, 11:18 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Definitely not a Kauhava Puukko

4th October 2021, 11:51 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	It looks Indian to me, in imitation of older horse handle khanjars, though not antique.

5th October 2021, 02:19 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I would agree with TVV - from India but not an antique

5th October 2021, 07:59 PM	#6
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 717	thnx a lot gents for identifying and clarifying this !

6th October 2021, 03:35 PM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Even though the dagger is not "authentic", I find the horse's expression very appealing from maybe a folkart perspective. Art is really where you find it. Is the horse cast metal or carved wood with metal-like paint under the decorative work? Ed

8th October 2021, 01:11 AM	#11
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Thanks, Jim. We agree. Many attractive ethnographic arms worthy of collecting continue to be made to satisfy the collector market when they may be declining as cultural expressions in their native context. The Omani Jambiya and the Sudanese Kaskara are just two examples, maybe Indian arms as well. Is an Omani Jambiya bought in a shop by a traveler in an Omani suq any less "authentic" than the same collected in a remote village, a salon in London or one delivered by Amazon Prime. Of course the quality of workmanship, "new" vs. "old" should be paired with provenance and chain of custody to play a critical part in defining high-end collector value. Also, many collectors and "appreciators" of fine ethnographic weapons are likely attracted by the artistic quality of the item. For the jambiya it's the scabbard and belt. The swords of Moroland variability of form is in the blade shape. We often go for the bling added by silversmiths and other artists after the functional quality of a weapon has been established. The same holds for the weapons original owner who had the piece embellished to satisfy ego and/or establish prestige. New or old, used or fresh from the craft shop, I believe that it's the quality of the art as we see it that largely defines our attraction. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Ed