Horn Jungayyan twistcore kris

Bill M · 9th March 2008, 03:18 PM

This has some incredible metal in it. I need to stain the blade, but thought that I would go ahead and post it. The pictures really don't do it justice.

kino · 9th March 2008, 05:15 PM

You sure have a magnificent collection of Moro Kris'. Looking at them makes me want to go out hunting for those elusive creatures.

I remember the former owner, he used to post here on the boards.

I think the baka-baka are distractingly oversized. If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion.

David · 9th March 2008, 07:14 PM

I don't know Kino, the baca-baca are what they are. Even if they are not original to this kris i am willing to bet that they are at least tradition done and have been a part of the piece for some time. I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. Now if it were a recent addition that was poorly crafted or installed or was done outside the culture in a manner that did not speak to the a cultural aesthetic integrity i might consider having the piece proper "restored". But that doesn't seem to be the case with these baca-baca, even if they do seem a bit large.

rand · 9th March 2008, 07:25 PM

These twist core blades have an intrinsic beauty that makes ones stare in silent amazement, add to that the opulent pommels and you have a stunning combination that just makes one salivate.....

When I grow up hope I get one of these too.......

rand

kino · 9th March 2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't know Kino, the baca-baca are what they are. Even if they are not original to this kris i am willing to bet that they are at least tradition done and have been a part of the piece for some time. I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. Now if it were a recent addition that was poorly crafted or installed or was done outside the culture in a manner that did not speak to the a cultural aesthetic integrity i might consider having the piece proper "restored". But that doesn't seem to be the case with these baca-baca, even if they do seem a bit large.

David,
As I said in my post "my If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion". To me it would be more pleasing if it were fitted properly.

I know of some Keris collectors that change the dress of the blades and Japanese sword collectors that do the same to meet their own personal taste.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Bill M · 9th March 2008, 11:47 PM

As David said, they are tradition done and appropriate. Personally if I was having them made, I would have asked them to be smaller, but they look good enough to me.

Bill

David · 9th March 2008, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

As I said in my post "my If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion". To me it would be more pleasing if it were fitted properly.

Yes, i understand it was just your opinion. It was your opinion that i was responding to with one of my own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

I know of some Keris collectors that change the dress of the blades and Japanese sword collectors that do the same to meet their own personal taste.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Yep, i as well have changed out worn pieces of keris dress such as mendaks and had sheath made for blades without. I have also replaced hilts on a couple of blades when the hilt was either inappropriate for the style of blade (i.e. a Sumatran blade w/ a Sumatran wrongko, but a Javanese hilt), a cheap more modern replacement that didn't do the blade justice, or just simply damaged beyond repair. Dress is most often changed on keris when the old ones have worn out to the point where it is disrespectful to the blade to maintain it as is. While the owner's personal tastes inevitably come into play when making such changes, for me they are changes which are driven more by necessity than taste and a desire to restore the piece to it's former glory.
With Bill's kris you would find it more pleasing if it were "fittted properly", but i'm not convinced that this form is improper. These seem like traditional and indigenously made baca-baca. They look like they have been on the kris for some period of time as well. I can understand that they may not be to your taste, or even mine for that matter, but for me that would not be enough of a reason to go to the trouble of changing them. To me they seem like a completely valid ethnographic variation, and therefore even more collectable from that standpoint, even if my own aesthetic sensibilities would prefer to see thinner ones.

Jazz · 10th March 2008, 05:47 AM

Quote:

I think the baka-baka are distractingly oversized. If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion.

Excellent call, Kino. Not only it's oversized, but it looked thin and unnatural. I'm with you on this one. I would definitely have it changed in a more traditional manner.

kino · 15th March 2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Even if they are not original to this kris i am willing to bet that they are at least tradition done and have been a part of the piece for some time. I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. Now if it were a recent addition that was poorly crafted or installed or was done outside the culture in a manner that did not speak to the a cultural aesthetic integrity i might consider having the piece proper "restored". But that doesn't seem to be the case with these baca-baca, even if they do seem a bit large.

I see it differently. I don't see it as being attached to the Kris for some time or traditionally done. Even if it were on the Kris for some time and made in the Philippines, and traditionally done, if it's a poor job,..... it's a poor job.

Cato mentions in his book about Kris' having handles modified (elongated). to fit American soldiers hands. I have one of these examples. Am I going to cut it back down to it's original length? No, why because it looks good to me, even though it's slightly long, I would prefer to leave it as it is because it aesthetically fitting to me.

[QUOTE=David] I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. QUOTE]

A majority of collectors do, some more than others. Some won't admit to it.

In the end, all that matters on Bill's Kris, is, that he's happy with his toys.

Post more Bill.

Jazz · 15th March 2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

I see it differently. I don't see it as being attached to the Kris for some time or traditionally done.

Me neither.

Bill M · 15th March 2008, 05:32 PM

I see a valid point in the size of these baca-baca, however I don't really feel like going to the trouble and expense of replacing them. I don't dislike them that much, and as a few people have stated, I am the one who has to live with this kris.

But mayeb someday.

I would like to see some pictures of baca-baca that members might find more appropriate to this kris.

Here are a few others. Also found one other straight blade twistcore.

David · 15th March 2008, 06:11 PM

[QUOTE=kino]I see it differently. I don't see it as being attached to the Kris for some time or traditionally done. Even if it were on the Kris for some time and made in the Philippines, and traditionally done, if it's a poor job,..... it's a poor job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. QUOTE]

A majority of collectors do, some more than others. Some won't admit to it.

Obviously both you and Jazz know something about the origins of this particular kris that i am unaware of. Do any of you have a photo of this kris with it's "original" hilt?
I am not sure what you know that supports your theory that a "majority" of collectors change their ethnographic pieces to meet their own personal aesthetic. Certainly some do. This does not change the fact that for me it seems counter to the concept of collecting ethnographic items.

kino · 15th March 2008, 06:48 PM

[QUOTE=David

Obviously both you and Jazz know something about the origins of this particular kris that i am unaware of. Do any of you have a photo of this kris with it's "original" hilt?
QUOTE]

I know nothing about the original hilt, so no photos from me. I just know of the previous caretaker.
Jazz do you have any photos of it?

Bill, Regarding the silver jungayan kris posted on this thread, I would love to see more photos of it.

9th March 2008, 03:18 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Horn Jungayyan twistcore kris This has some incredible metal in it. I need to stain the blade, but thought that I would go ahead and post it. The pictures really don't do it justice. Attached Images

9th March 2008, 05:15 PM	#2
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	WOW! You sure have a magnificent collection of Moro Kris'. Looking at them makes me want to go out hunting for those elusive creatures. I remember the former owner, he used to post here on the boards. I think the baka-baka are distractingly oversized. If they were mine I would have them replaced. Just my opinion.

9th March 2008, 07:25 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Twist Core These twist core blades have an intrinsic beauty that makes ones stare in silent amazement, add to that the opulent pommels and you have a stunning combination that just makes one salivate..... When I grow up hope I get one of these too....... rand

15th March 2008, 05:32 PM	#11
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I see a valid point in the size of these baca-baca, however I don't really feel like going to the trouble and expense of replacing them. I don't dislike them that much, and as a few people have stated, I am the one who has to live with this kris. But mayeb someday. I would like to see some pictures of baca-baca that members might find more appropriate to this kris. Here are a few others. Also found one other straight blade twistcore. Attached Images

9th March 2008, 07:14 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I don't know Kino, the baca-baca are what they are. Even if they are not original to this kris i am willing to bet that they are at least tradition done and have been a part of the piece for some time. I don't quite understand the point of collecting ethnographic pieces if we then go ahead and change the piece to meet our own personal aesthetic. Now if it were a recent addition that was poorly crafted or installed or was done outside the culture in a manner that did not speak to the a cultural aesthetic integrity i might consider having the piece proper "restored". But that doesn't seem to be the case with these baca-baca, even if they do seem a bit large.

9th March 2008, 11:47 PM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	As David said, they are tradition done and appropriate. Personally if I was having them made, I would have asked them to be smaller, but they look good enough to me. Bill

15th March 2008, 06:48 PM	#13
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	[QUOTE=David Obviously both you and Jazz know something about the origins of this particular kris that i am unaware of. Do any of you have a photo of this kris with it's "original" hilt? QUOTE] I know nothing about the original hilt, so no photos from me. I just know of the previous caretaker. Jazz do you have any photos of it? Bill, Regarding the silver jungayan kris posted on this thread, I would love to see more photos of it.