like your opinion on this Palembang keris

[sirek]

Just picked this up: nice old Palembang I think.
The scabbard needed some restoration, unfortunately there was only one half.
I hope there is someone who can tell me more about it, is it an original Palembang blade? It seems to me an original composition, the pendoko looks it’s gilt silver, but the gold has almost all disappeared, leaving a faint golden tinge.
The veiled durga hilt has no cracks (but was stuck very tightly) the total length of the blade is: 45cm/17.7inches, length of the pesi: 6cm/2.4inches.

The little one is 24cm/9.4 inches in total, I do not know if it is a patrem, or is it talismanic?

Thanks in advance for your comment,

[sirek]

and another picture of the little one

[Sajen]

Hello Sirek,

yes, in my humble opinion it is a Palembang blade. Look for comparison to the blade of my Palembang keris. I have a second example with nearly the same features.
Nice catch!

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

And here both side by side. Of course have your blade sogokan and my not but I think that you can see the affinity.

[David]

I agree that this is a nice old Palembang kris, but i do not think that this hilt is durga...

[BluErf]

Certainly looks Palembang to me. The greneng style is consistent with what I see on my Palembang pieces.

The interesting thing is that this blade looks more 'beefy', with much more accentuated luk than most other Palembang blades of similar style. Here's one of mine for comparison.

[sirek]

Thanks for sharing, I welcome your comments.

I am glad that it’s a original, there are indeed many similarities especially the
greneng style.
In my opinion an original Palembang-keris is not so common,and is not often offered for sale in our country.

Originally Posted by David

I agree that this is a nice old Palembang kris, but i do not think that this hilt is durga...

I used the name veiled-Durga, simply because I know no other name for this hilt shape.
If I see a picture somewhere, he is described as veiled-Durga
(I saw this name already discussed in previous discussions,but without
result only known as Palembang hilt or batman hilt )
or has someone already found the correct name for it?

One more for easy viewing without scrolling

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by sirek

I used the name veiled-Durga, simply because I know no other name for this hilt shape.
If I see a picture somewhere, he is described as veiled-Durga
(I saw this name already discussed in previous discussions,but without
result only known as Palembang hilt or batman hilt )
or has someone already found the correct name for it?

I think it was again Martin Kerner who used first time "Veiled-Durga" for this type of hilt in his book "Keris-Griffe Aus Museen Und Privatsammlungen" (look page 139) and others take this unproofed. It is said on other place that this hilts are common in a region neighbouring to Palembang, Bengkulu, what seems verisimilar since all examples I have seen coming with a typical Palembang sheath.
Here a second example with this hilt from my collection.

[David]

Originally Posted by sirek

I used the name veiled-Durga, simply because I know no other name for this hilt shape.
If I see a picture somewhere, he is described as veiled-Durga
(I saw this name already discussed in previous discussions,but without
result only known as Palembang hilt or batman hilt )
or has someone already found the correct name for it?

It seems to me that this is a figurative hilt which lost it's face to Islam restrictions on depicting human form so i don't think the face is vieled as Durga is sometimes depicted. I can see no resemblance to Durga whatsoever (Durga is a female goddess btw, so not a "he") and can't image how Kerner supports his assertion. I don't think it is in the best interest of the keris world to use such unsupported names as it only perpetuates inaccuracies for future collectors. Frankly, i prefer the term "batman" hilt simply because we can't mistakingly believe that the hilt truly represents Batman, while calling it a "Durga" hilt implies that was it's original intention.

[Sajen]

Here a citation from Kris Disk Jensen: Martin Kerner thinks it represents the veiled death-goddess Durga (Balu Mekabun - Topeng type)4. That is most probable, as certain Panjang/Bahari-krisses from Northern Sumatra, which has been used for executions, have a similar hilt.5.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here a citation from Kris Disk Jensen: Martin Kerner thinks it represents the veiled death-goddess Durga (Balu Mekabun - Topeng type)4. That is most probable, as certain Panjang/Bahari-krisses from Northern Sumatra, which has been used for executions, have a similar hilt.5.

A quote from Jensen is all well and good, but i still don't see any reasonable support for his position...

[A. G. Maisey]

Mr. Kerner and Mr. Jensen have both now been promoted to a higher existence.

Both were refined and gentle men, giving true meaning to the term "gentleman".

My feeling is that the ideas of both should be permitted to rest.

I disagree strongly with this "vieled Durga" terminology, and I have somewhat of a problem with "balu mekabun" also ---"balu" is Old Javanese for "widow", but "mekabun"? I do not know the word, nor "kabun", and I cannot find it in Old Javanese, Modern Javanese, Balinese, Kawi, nor Indonesian. I could be utterly wrong, but to me it looks very much like a corrupted spelling, and the name as a whole a combination of words put together from different languages.

Look at the word "mekabun". "Me" can be a prefix, and if the second part of the word was "kebun" we would have prefix "me" + "garden". But even then we would not have a recognisable word, because "mekebun" is grammatically incorrect.As a "garden" related word, it simply does not exist.

My feeling is that the term "balu mekabun" was the invention of some western person who half understood some Indonesian language. Now, my reasoning could be totally incorrect:- "balu mekabun" might be a language or dialect that I do not know; it might be Palembang dialect. Can anybody identify this term as coming from any Indonesian language?

I feel that both of these terms should be left to lay without further debate, but that a new and supportable term be coined for this hilt form, pending the time when some interested party actually goes into the field and obtains the generally used local name for this form --- and that may not be so easy at the present time.

I think of this form as "Palembang symbolic figural", or just "Palembang figural".

David seems to like "Batman".

Perhaps somebody else might like to propose a name that will not generate disagreement when it is used?

[BluErf]

Did someone call for batman?

[PenangsangII]

i would suspect that the term ''balu mekabun'' derives from ''balu berkabung''. It is a Malay term for ''mourning widow''. Philosophically, the hilt of a keris in the olden days is often exposed for everyone to see. Its a warning to those who dare try to create problems with the wearer of the keris hilted with this design / motif. Something like, ''widow maker'' signage for everone to see. ''if you try to be funny with me, think about your wife at home who will definitely mourn your death''. Unfortunately, i am not able to provide any reference for this.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Sirek,

yes, in my humble opinion it is a Palembang blade. Look for comparison to the blade of my Palembang keris. I have a second example with nearly the same features.
Nice catch!

Hi Sirek, your long keris seems to be a nice example of a Palembang keris. The shorther keris, although looks crude.. it's a type that can be found around that region.

Sajen, your keris is also nice, but the selut and mendak do not match, imho looking and post #3 and #4. Looking at the blade, the kembang kacang area seems disturbed especially the pamor works, which suggests a repair, perhaps.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I agree with you Penangsang, but not a derivation, a corruption possibly by a person who did not speak the language.

The "vieled durga" hilt is found in Jawa, where some of the people who carve them simply call them "wadon" :- woman.

They are supposedly found in Bali and I don't know what they're called there.

If we accept the Palembang hilt that started this discussion as a variation of the same type of hilt, they are found in the Palembang area of Sumatra.

In Palembang a dialect of Malay called Musi is spoken. Maybe there is a connection. Maybe.

But before I accept "balu mekabun" as a legitimate local name for this hilt, I would need to see some hard evidence that both the names currently used for this hilt form are not the invention of somebody who was not a part of any S.E. Asian culture.

[David]

The wadon hilts of Jawa have a definite female form (ergo the name). Can someone please show me what elements these palembang hilts have that open the door to the same interpretation. I'm just not seeing it. This figure seems much more masculine to me, even if faceless...

[A. G. Maisey]

I can see no relationship either David, but Mr. Jensen seemed to think that there might be one.

I believe that Mr. Jensen got his ideas on this from Mr. Kerner.

I liked Martin Kerner, I corresponded with him, I found him to be a very polite and civilized human being. His mathematical analysis of early keris is a wonderful piece of work, however, when he wandered into some of the other areas of keris knowledge his ideas did become a little bit peculiar.

Actually, the "balu mekabun" name troubles me more than the "vieled durga" name. Veiled Durga is in English, and as such it could not possibly have been used in any S.E, Asian country, but balu mekabun looks as if it could be a name taken from a Malay dialect or language.

Penangsang offered that it might have come from "balu berkabung", but if it did it is a corruption by a non-Malay speaker:- we simply cannot have "mekabun" coming from "berkabung".

The word "balu" is found in Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Balinese, Old Javanese. In all languages it means "widow".

However I can find no reference to "kabun" which is likely to be the root word, nor "mekabun" in any dictionary of S.E. Asian languages, to which I have access. I do not know the word, friends who are native speakers of Indonesian and several Javanese dialects, as well as Balinese, do not know the word.

I believe that somebody, who might have been Mr. Kerner, or Mr. Jensen, or one of their informants, concocted this description from half remembered or half understood Malay.

I do not believe it is a name that has a local origin.

I will be more than happy to retract this opinion when somebody can offer proof that it is wrong.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Sajen, your keris is also nice, but the selut and mendak do not match, imho looking and post #3 and #4. Looking at the blade, the kembang kacang area seems disturbed especially the pamor works, which suggests a repair, perhaps.

Hello Alam,

yes, I know that mendhak and selut are wrong but I get this keris in this way. Blade was corroded and the hilt in the same form was split. So the blade was washed and etched and I replaced the handle. Until now I don't found a matching selut. I don't think that the kembang kacang is repaired but I agree that it look on the picture like this. BTW gandik area and the top of the gonjo was at some time before gilded.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David seems to like "Batman".

Perhaps somebody else might like to propose a name that will not generate disagreement when it is used?

What is about: "Person-who-lost-his-face-hilt" ?