17th August 2009, 04:59 AM | #1 |
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two types of Piras?
I've been wondering about this... perhaps this has been discussed before or it's common knowledge and I'm just not educated in it. If that's the case just let me know what's what and we can be done with this thread.
Here are pictures of Piras I've found: (they're not mine, just ones I found while surfing the web) Do they they look similar? Yes. But do they look like the same blade? No. Two types of Pira? Now I can understand that locally many varying lengths and sizes of the same blade type can be found, but Piras, Yakan's favored blade I'm told, consistently come in TWO forms... the one with the hump (which I've handled and used before) and the klewang-like one. One has a lobe at the tip's end, not unlike the Chinese Ox-tail saber or the Turkish Kilij in practice. However the other (usually larger and more sword-like) Pira has a look very similar to klewang from Sumba, Timor, etc. See below:So Why two? I can see two possibilities for why the hump-back Pira was developed. Please help me out if I am incorrect here... So... what? Am I spot on? Totally off? Why then, are they both called Piras? Does that suggest the hump-back evolved from the klewang? Does that just mean a categorization error by revered academics? Any and all suggestions, explanations, and criticisms welcome. Last edited by KuKulzA28; 17th August 2009 at 05:13 AM. |
17th August 2009, 03:03 PM | #2 |
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Ah, what's in a name ??
I'm not seeing a great similarity in the tips you have illustrated . I'd be willing to bet that the Pira you have shown in the lower right of your four examples is probably the oldest form . The example you show above it seems to be mid 20thC; it certainly has a pira hilt but the blade seems a bit generic . Two styles sharing the same name but very different forms ? |
17th August 2009, 04:35 PM | #3 |
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I agree with Rick, the upper left is the newest form that came from the oldest form, the lower right.
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17th August 2009, 08:24 PM | #4 |
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Ok, so the shorter hump-back Pira comes after the sword-like Pira?
Why the new form? is it because of reasons I guessed at earlier (shift in weaponry, disarming, utility vs. war), or ones I had not considered? Thanks by the way |
17th August 2009, 09:08 PM | #5 |
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No answers, just another data point and some speculation
This pira was purchased in the market in Zamboanga City in the mid 1970s. I recall that the stall had a number of what I remember as huge kris-like blades with silver wire inlay (tourist versus real I cannot say now), but this was the one thing that caught my novice eye (I recall the brass in the stall was pretty touristy). The scabbard has been wrapped with black plastic electrical tape - so much like what I would have done in that time - but in this case it came to me like that, loosely over-wrapped with the strip of cloth. It did not strike me as being really old, maybe about a decade (though it now looks much the same after I have had it nearly 35 years!), but it did have some evidence of use and work staining and light bleaching of the handle and scabbard. It was and remains incredibly sharp. I have always regarded it first as a tool, but clearly it could very effectively serve as a weapon. So, I'll speculate that this is a utilitarian tool. To me, it is a distinct type, as opposed to being evolved from the somewhat more flamboyant weapon.
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17th August 2009, 09:11 PM | #6 |
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I believe that you are correct and that the "humpback" version is the modern predecessor of the more elegant old style.
There was some discussion on these in the old forum: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000136.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001032.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000758.html As far as the why's?..... |
17th August 2009, 09:24 PM | #7 |
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A plea to preserve the archives
Oh dear, following the links, I guess I have trotted this one out a few times before. Sorry about that.
But this does bring up an issue of lost pictures in threads. Please, whenever possible, use the facility to upload pictures to the vikingsword.com server rather than hosting them on a third party photo sharing site. That way they should at least survive as long as the text does. We have seen several photo hosting services close or merge with links broken and sometimes even the images lost. Personally, when my cable company changed the naming for the small web space they provide to me as part of the package this broke many image links I had posted to other various forums I was a member of. |
17th August 2009, 10:21 PM | #8 |
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Possibly we are looking at the de-evolution of a pure weapon to an agricultural tool .
Notice the less pronounced belly in the blade of the newer examples; better for brush than very curved for human targets .I think that if you take the upper side of the point of the oldest example and carry that line closer to the hilt you wind up with the agricultural form . Last edited by Rick; 17th August 2009 at 10:36 PM. |
18th August 2009, 01:52 AM | #9 |
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Interesting thread! I still find the early 1900s pira the most graceful of all (from Krieger) -- I wish I had one
Last edited by migueldiaz; 18th August 2009 at 02:15 AM. |
18th August 2009, 02:23 AM | #10 |
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Here's the oldest pira I have, which is my pride and joy
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18th August 2009, 02:38 AM | #11 |
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I must thank my Wife and Charles for my example .
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...s1/182-rb6.jpg Lucky guy am I . |
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