A Beater Sword

harrywagner · 10th March 2016, 06:58 PM

Here's one i've not seen before. It is an Indian beater Shamshir. For those that don't know, beaters had one of the worst jobs in the world. They were Indian slaves whose task it was to venture into the tall grass and jungle and attempt to flush tigers, and other dangerous animals, for their masters hunting pleasure. To assist in the flushing, and their own safety, they were given a short sword such as this. The dealer I purchased this from listed it as 19thc and provided these translations for the two Arabic quotes at the scabbard drag:

“By thanking (Allah) blessings last / remain” and “Justice is the basis of sovereignty / kingdom”.

LOA: 24.5" LOB: 19.5"

No mention of the blade being wootz, but it sure looks like it to me. I would appreciate it if a more experienced collector can confirm this. I am frequently wrong. TIA!

Harry

harrywagner · 10th March 2016, 06:59 PM

A few more photos

digenis · 10th March 2016, 07:43 PM

To me it looks like a tourist piece made mid 20th century when the "tourist piece" industry was more primitive in India and pieces had some regional, handmade or unique elements.

I am not an expert on this so I will defer to more informed opinions.

harrywagner · 10th March 2016, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digenis

To me it looks like a tourist piece made mid 20th century when the "tourist piece" industry was more primitive in India and pieces had some regional, handmade or unique elements.

I am not an expert on this so I will defer to more informed opinions.

I wondered about it being a tourist piece myself. I have been fooled before. I finally convinced myself it is real, due mostly to the wear, but I am no expert either. Hopefully someone has seen one of these before. Thanks for your comment! They all help.

Harry

ALEX · 11th March 2016, 11:40 AM

Harry, your intuition was right - a tourist piece indeed.
I do not think it is Indian, nor wootz. Likely a Levant or Egyptian relatively modern souvenir or child's toy. They are usually short and have brass cast fittings, such as on this one. the blades are often cut/shaped from sheet metal, not forged, but hard to tell by pictures.
I am fascinated by the seller's "beater sword" story and how these short swords were used to chase lions out of the bushes

Is it something that even existed?

Kubur · 11th March 2016, 11:52 AM

I confirm, Turkish tourist stuff proablably around 1920-30ties.
With figures and decorations in a so-called Qajar style, a mix of Islamic stuff...
You have also daggers and powder flasks in the same style (see previous posts).
Harry you can't win all the time! You got already a lot of cool things recently!!

Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 11th March 2016, 11:54 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t+powder+flask

harrywagner · 11th March 2016, 12:47 PM

Thanks! i took a chance on this one. I should know better.

Nothing to do but shrug it off. I have come to accept that I will get burned occasionally trying to quickly makeup for four decades of missed collecting. It is not a total loss. It will make good office decor, and it still counts towards my education. The more pieces I handle, fake or real, the better I will be at spotting the keepers. At least I hope that is the case! For the record, I don't have any hard feelings towards the dealer I bought this from. I will be more cautious about buying from them again, but am not about to make a fuss over a small thing like this. Thanks again for the help. I like knowing what I have. As much as I dislike being fooled, I would dislike it even more if I was fooled and never knew.

Harry

Ian · 11th March 2016, 02:43 PM

Harry:

It happens to everyone. That's how we learn.

Ian

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks! i took a chance on this one. I should know better.

Nothing to do but shrug it off. I have come to accept that I will get burned occasionally trying to quickly makeup for four decades of missed collecting. It is not a total loss. It will make good office decor, and it still counts towards my education. The more pieces I handle, fake or real, the better I will be at spotting the keepers. At least I hope that is the case! For the record, I don't have any hard feelings towards the dealer I bought this from. I will be more cautious about buying from them again, but am not about to make a fuss over a small thing like this. Thanks again for the help. I like knowing what I have. As much as I dislike being fooled, I would dislike it even more if I was fooled and never knew.

Harry

Tim Simmons · 11th March 2016, 04:32 PM

Collecting on a tight budget, especially with early enthusiasm does tend to lead to a few errors. This is still going to happen on occasions when seasoned. I bet wealthy collectors make mistakes too, but they have less need to gamble. Keep looking and learn, as goods buys can be had online.

harrywagner · 11th March 2016, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I confirm, Turkish tourist stuff proablably around 1920-30ties.
With figures and decorations in a so-called Qajar style, a mix of Islamic stuff...
You have also daggers and powder flasks in the same style (see previous posts).
Harry you can't win all the time! You got already a lot of cool things recently!!

Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur, is there a limit?

VANDOO · 11th March 2016, 07:24 PM

LARGE TIGER HUNTS HELD BY THE MAHARAJAHS IN INDIA DID USE LARGE NUMBERS OF BEATERS TO DRIVE THE GAME TO THE ROYAL HUNTERS AND THEIR GUESTS. SOME OF THOSE PUT IN CHARGE OF THE BEATERS MAY HAVE BEEN ISSUED A UNIFORM AND SWORD BUT MOST BEATERS WOULD HAVE USED WHAT EVER THEY HAD ON HAND FOR DEFENSE BUT MOSTLY RELIED ON THEIR NOISE YELLING AND BEATING ON SOMETHING TO DRIVE ANY DANGEROUS GAME AHEAD OF THEM. I HAVE SEEN VARIOUS FORMS OF SWORDS SAID TO HAVE BEEN USED DURING THESE HUNTS OVER THE YEARS BUT DO NOT KNOW IF THEY WERE USED BY BEATERS. THEY COULD HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO GUESTS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE HUNT. OR AS A REWARD TO A BEATER WHO DID SOMETHING BRAVE THAT MADE THE HUNT SUCCESSFUL. WEAPONS WERE ISSUED FROM THE ARSENALS FOR WAR BUT PROBABLY NOT FOR HUNTS AND MOST ARMORY GENERAL ISSUES WERE NOT FANCY. YOUR EXAMPLE LOOKS MORE LIKE A ARABIC OR RUSSIAN FORM THAN A INDIAN FORM TO ME BUT ITS NOT MY SPECIALTY. THERE IS NO SHAME IN HANGING A NICE LOOKING AFFORDABLE WALL HANGER I HAVE MANY.

kahnjar1 · 11th March 2016, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks! i took a chance on this one. I should know better.

Nothing to do but shrug it off. I have come to accept that I will get burned occasionally trying to quickly makeup for four decades of missed collecting. It is not a total loss. It will make good office decor, and it still counts towards my education. The more pieces I handle, fake or real, the better I will be at spotting the keepers. At least I hope that is the case! For the record, I don't have any hard feelings towards the dealer I bought this from. I will be more cautious about buying from them again, but am not about to make a fuss over a small thing like this. Thanks again for the help. I like knowing what I have. As much as I dislike being fooled, I would dislike it even more if I was fooled and never knew.

Harry

......collecting is not a race. Those who started (in their minds) late, are not going to "catch up" to those who have been collecting for many years.
A collection is not judged IMHO on numbers of items, but rather the quality of what is in the collection.

Miguel · 11th March 2016, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks! i took a chance on this one. I should know better.

Nothing to do but shrug it off. I have come to accept that I will get burned occasionally trying to quickly makeup for four decades of missed collecting. It is not a total loss. It will make good office decor, and it still counts towards my education. The more pieces I handle, fake or real, the better I will be at spotting the keepers. At least I hope that is the case! For the record, I don't have any hard feelings towards the dealer I bought this from. I will be more cautious about buying from them again, but am not about to make a fuss over a small thing like this. Thanks again for the help. I like knowing what I have. As much as I dislike being fooled, I would dislike it even more if I was fooled and never knew.

Harry

Hi Harry,

I wasn't to sure whether it was a tourist item or not when I first saw your photos in fact I toyed with the idea that it might be Syrian because of the shape of the hilt, it was Kubur`s comments that made up my mind. I still like it though and reckon given a good clean and polish it will make a really good conversation piece. It was worth having for the story that came with it.

I agree entirely with your last comments and is the attitude that I have always had to my mistakes over the last 50 plus years of collecting.

Kind regards
Miguel

Kubur · 11th March 2016, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Hi Kubur, is there a limit?

We always do mistakes, the more important is to be kind.
Some old members are really boring because they are patronising the others.
For what i don't know...
Harry it's like LasVegas, I'm not sure that you can always win...

I agree with Khanjar, better a little and nice collection than a big and lazy one...
Like other things

mariusgmioc · 11th March 2016, 11:11 PM

The shape of the blade and the sharpening of the edge should be an immediate giveaway. In this case the blade is completely flat, unlike any ME sword I know of. Most likely cut from a sheet steel. The sharpening is crude scandi grind, which can be easily done with very basic machines.

10th March 2016, 06:58 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	A Beater Sword Here's one i've not seen before. It is an Indian beater Shamshir. For those that don't know, beaters had one of the worst jobs in the world. They were Indian slaves whose task it was to venture into the tall grass and jungle and attempt to flush tigers, and other dangerous animals, for their masters hunting pleasure. To assist in the flushing, and their own safety, they were given a short sword such as this. The dealer I purchased this from listed it as 19thc and provided these translations for the two Arabic quotes at the scabbard drag: “By thanking (Allah) blessings last / remain” and “Justice is the basis of sovereignty / kingdom”. LOA: 24.5" LOB: 19.5" No mention of the blade being wootz, but it sure looks like it to me. I would appreciate it if a more experienced collector can confirm this. I am frequently wrong. TIA! Harry Attached Images

10th March 2016, 06:59 PM	#2
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	A few more photos Attached Images

11th March 2016, 12:47 PM	#8
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Thanks! Thanks! i took a chance on this one. I should know better. Nothing to do but shrug it off. I have come to accept that I will get burned occasionally trying to quickly makeup for four decades of missed collecting. It is not a total loss. It will make good office decor, and it still counts towards my education. The more pieces I handle, fake or real, the better I will be at spotting the keepers. At least I hope that is the case! For the record, I don't have any hard feelings towards the dealer I bought this from. I will be more cautious about buying from them again, but am not about to make a fuss over a small thing like this. Thanks again for the help. I like knowing what I have. As much as I dislike being fooled, I would dislike it even more if I was fooled and never knew. Harry

11th March 2016, 11:11 PM	#16
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Tip The shape of the blade and the sharpening of the edge should be an immediate giveaway. In this case the blade is completely flat, unlike any ME sword I know of. Most likely cut from a sheet steel. The sharpening is crude scandi grind, which can be easily done with very basic machines.

10th March 2016, 07:43 PM	#3
digenis Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 48	To me it looks like a tourist piece made mid 20th century when the "tourist piece" industry was more primitive in India and pieces had some regional, handmade or unique elements. I am not an expert on this so I will defer to more informed opinions.

11th March 2016, 11:40 AM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Harry, your intuition was right - a tourist piece indeed. I do not think it is Indian, nor wootz. Likely a Levant or Egyptian relatively modern souvenir or child's toy. They are usually short and have brass cast fittings, such as on this one. the blades are often cut/shaped from sheet metal, not forged, but hard to tell by pictures. I am fascinated by the seller's "beater sword" story and how these short swords were used to chase lions out of the bushes Is it something that even existed?

11th March 2016, 11:52 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I confirm, Turkish tourist stuff proablably around 1920-30ties. With figures and decorations in a so-called Qajar style, a mix of Islamic stuff... You have also daggers and powder flasks in the same style (see previous posts). Harry you can't win all the time! You got already a lot of cool things recently!! Best, Kubur

11th March 2016, 11:54 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t+powder+flask

11th March 2016, 04:32 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Collecting on a tight budget, especially with early enthusiasm does tend to lead to a few errors. This is still going to happen on occasions when seasoned. I bet wealthy collectors make mistakes too, but they have less need to gamble. Keep looking and learn, as goods buys can be had online.

11th March 2016, 07:24 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	LARGE TIGER HUNTS HELD BY THE MAHARAJAHS IN INDIA DID USE LARGE NUMBERS OF BEATERS TO DRIVE THE GAME TO THE ROYAL HUNTERS AND THEIR GUESTS. SOME OF THOSE PUT IN CHARGE OF THE BEATERS MAY HAVE BEEN ISSUED A UNIFORM AND SWORD BUT MOST BEATERS WOULD HAVE USED WHAT EVER THEY HAD ON HAND FOR DEFENSE BUT MOSTLY RELIED ON THEIR NOISE YELLING AND BEATING ON SOMETHING TO DRIVE ANY DANGEROUS GAME AHEAD OF THEM. I HAVE SEEN VARIOUS FORMS OF SWORDS SAID TO HAVE BEEN USED DURING THESE HUNTS OVER THE YEARS BUT DO NOT KNOW IF THEY WERE USED BY BEATERS. THEY COULD HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO GUESTS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE HUNT. OR AS A REWARD TO A BEATER WHO DID SOMETHING BRAVE THAT MADE THE HUNT SUCCESSFUL. WEAPONS WERE ISSUED FROM THE ARSENALS FOR WAR BUT PROBABLY NOT FOR HUNTS AND MOST ARMORY GENERAL ISSUES WERE NOT FANCY. YOUR EXAMPLE LOOKS MORE LIKE A ARABIC OR RUSSIAN FORM THAN A INDIAN FORM TO ME BUT ITS NOT MY SPECIALTY. THERE IS NO SHAME IN HANGING A NICE LOOKING AFFORDABLE WALL HANGER I HAVE MANY.