Flintlock Pair, Need help Identifying

Chertbolt · 2nd November 2015, 09:03 PM

Hello all, I've been lurking around the forum for a couple days now looking for some information on a pair of flintlock pistols I am researching. I thought I would join and share what I have here. It is my hope that there may be a few of you that might know some information about these.

I honestly do not have much information about these so I will mostly let the pictures speak for themselves. I will answer any questions to the best of my ability and please request additional pictures if you would like to see more detail.

Also I am aware that the topic of value is not to be discussed on the forum though it is my understanding that I may request that I be privately messaged on that topic?

Thank you for looking

Shakethetrees · 4th November 2015, 05:09 PM

Although they look European at a first glance, I think they're Turkish made for export. One European characteristic is the separate ram rod. Also, the lock appears to be of better quality than most Eastern European/Balkan/Turkish guns I've seen.

The punch marks are cryptic, and I have not heard of the name stamped under the breech.

The chasing or chisel work also is a strong indication of that region.

Silver wire inlay, ditto.

These appear to be of pretty good quality, and not the late slipshod work too often seen.

I would like to see some close ups of the lock from both sides.

Kubur · 4th November 2015, 06:51 PM

I confirm French pistols for Turkish market.
For me the punch marks are silver proofs.
Would be interesting to have the translation of the Arabic part...
And also a photo of the locks from outside!
If it's a true pair the value is increased...
Kubur

Kubur · 4th November 2015, 07:15 PM

Could be also French pistols for Algerian market, anyway Ottoman
The inscription will say... The frizen is not from the Balkans.
Pure pistols for export, very good quality indeed

Shakethetrees · 4th November 2015, 09:02 PM

The punch marks are absolutely not French silver marks. This is something I have dealt with for a long time.

The marks do not resemble those of any European country I know of.

Kubur · 4th November 2015, 11:00 PM

I agree for the punch marks especialy because one is 80 in Arabic numeral.
But i still think that's a French pistol for export, probably from Marseille.

Chertbolt · 5th November 2015, 03:59 AM

Thank you for your input.

I forgot to mention in my original post that I had the Arabic translated. I was told it reads the Arabic equivalent of "George Abraham" (or Ibrahim as its said in Arabic) with unconnected characters. Both pistols are marked with this name in the same location (underside of the grip).

I also forgot to note that nearly every piece of sliver on both pistols is stamped the same as the picture I posted. ( a star, and what I also thought might be the Arabic numeral '80' )

I'm unable to upload addition pictures at this time but I will post some more detailed photographs tomorrow.

If you look closely in the first picture you will notice both pistols have been defaced on the outside of the lock plate. I will get a close-up of this tomorrow.

There is also quite a bit of engraving on top of the barrel I will try to photograph. It is a crescent moon surrounded by stars.

Shakethetrees · 5th November 2015, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I agree for the punch marks especialy because one is 80 in Arabic numeral.
But i still think that's a French pistol for export, probably from Marseille.

The quality seems to be there for Marsailles, but silver was marked with an export stamp. As I recall, it was a goat's head.

Kubur · 5th November 2015, 02:55 PM

Ottoman Silver Marks
Kürkman, Garo
Istanbul: Mathusalem Publications, 1996
English - 293 pages
ISBN: 9789758129007
"A book by Garo Kürkman brings the tradition of silver marks and tughras, monograms of sultans
in stylized script, into light.For centuries, during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, it was
obligatory for gold and silver wares to be assayed and stamped at the states gold mint. These
marks are catalogued in the book titled “Ottoman Silver Marks.” The book contains a complete
list of the Tugra marks of the sultans and other silver marks."

Shakethetrees · 6th November 2015, 01:31 AM

I don't have any references with Turkish marks. Rarely see any of that work here.

Chertbolt · 6th November 2015, 07:02 AM

Here is a close-up of the locks.

rickystl · 6th November 2015, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chertbolt

Here is a close-up of the locks.

Hi Chertbolt.
Looks like the locks are invisible?? LOL. Hope you can Post close-ups of the locks.
I agree with others here. These pistols are an excellent example of European made - for export to the Ottoman market. For all the reasons mentioned above.
The stocks are copied from the French design, and the locks look very French, first to second quarter of the 19th Century. As mentioned, the lock internals are the typical higher quality found on Europen locks versus the more common Balkan made copies. And the non-serrated frizzen and full ramrods are also both give aways.
Again, a textbook example of Europen made pistols decorated for the Ottoman market. A great pair.
Rick.

Chertbolt · 7th November 2015, 12:56 AM

Oh yes, I forgot to mention they have the special ability to become completely transparent.

...or maybe I just forgot to re-size the pictures and they didn't attach. I fixed it.

Quote:

Hi Chertbolt.
Looks like the locks are invisible?? LOL. Hope you can Post close-ups of the locks.
I agree with others here. These pistols are an excellent example of European made - for export to the Ottoman market. For all the reasons mentioned above.
The stocks are copied from the French design, and the locks look very French, first to second quarter of the 19th Century. As mentioned, the lock internals are the typical higher quality found on Europen locks versus the more common Balkan made copies. And the non-serrated frizzen and full ramrods are also both give aways.
Again, a textbook example of Europen made pistols decorated for the Ottoman market. A great pair.
Rick.

Did you perhaps mean false ramrods? Because they are definitely not functional or full in length. Unless you meant something else by full?

Thank you all again for contributing to this thread. I had suspected they were European made for the Ottoman market with the prior research I had done before landing here. It is good to hear confirming opinions.

Pukka Bundook · 7th November 2015, 03:49 AM

I believe these pistols are Turkish/Ottoman, with European locks finished in the near east.

The trigger-guards do not look French to me, and the engraving isn't French either.
For Turkish pistols, these are very high -end. Congratulations on finding them!
Actually, going by the lock -work, they appear English locks....

Edited to correct my English lock bit!
On looking at the lock-work again, I see detachable pans. more or less unheard of in England.

Andreas · 7th November 2015, 11:19 AM

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

rickystl · 7th November 2015, 09:15 PM

Did you perhaps mean false ramrods? Because they are definitely not functional or full in length. Unless you meant something else by full?

Oh, ok. They are the "short" ramrods. That is one of the two variations of the "false ramrod".
Also, note the European style trigger vs the flat curl trigger usually encountered on the Balkan made pieces.

Thanks for the pics of the locks, also decorated in Ottoman style for local tastes.

Rick

rickystl · 7th November 2015, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I believe these pistols are Turkish/Ottoman, with European locks finished in the near east.

The trigger-guards do not look French to me, and the engraving isn't French either.
For Turkish pistols, these are very high -end. Congratulations on finding them!
Actually, going by the lock -work, they appear English locks....

Edited to correct my English lock bit!
On looking at the lock-work again, I see detachable pans. more or less unheard of in England.

Hi Richard.
Yes, they could have been final assembled in the Balkans from European parts. Just the locks and barrels imported. But when I look at the European style triggers, along with everything else, I still believe these pistols were finished and assembled in Europe for export.
The engraving on the trigger guards look typical generic Ottoman/Balkan. And could have easily been done in Europe, or locally since the guards appear to be iron forgings.
And I see what you mean by the locks. They have both English and French styling cues. Hmmm.
Rick.

rickystl · 7th November 2015, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

Now that is interesting. Thank you Andreas!!
Rick.

Chertbolt · 7th November 2015, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Hello,
The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810.
Andreas

I agree with Rick. Very Interesting! I had searched for the proof mark but could not find it referenced anywhere. I am still learning!

Would you mind sharing where you have seen this proof mark documented?

I am also very interested in knowing more about Jean Brosars and where you have seen other examples baring his name. Any information would be of great help. My mother is an experienced genealogical researcher and is working on this name as well as the Arabic inscription of 'George Abraham' to try and find more information.

She did find a Syrian man by the name of George Abraham that lived 20 minutes away from the earliest known owner of these pistols, whom would be my uncles father. Though we have not found any solid connections to say for certain that this is the same George Abraham.

Will update as we find more information.

For now here are some more pictures.

Andreas · 8th November 2015, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chertbolt

I agree with Rick. Very Interesting! I had searched for the proof mark but could not find it referenced anywhere. I am still learning!

Would you mind sharing where you have seen this proof mark documented?

This crown is characteristic of the Saint Etienne proof bench. The AM is attributed to Auguste Merley, controller for civilian weapons (retired 1810). Please see here

HTML Code:

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t91622-vos-avis-sur-differents-pistolets-anciens

and here

HTML Code:

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t63478-restauration-pistolet-1er-empire

, also for images of Brosars barrels.
Andreas

Ian · 8th November 2015, 02:41 PM

Thank you Andreas. Excellent sources and directly relevant to the items under discussion. Chertbolt now has an answer to his question as to where these were made and by whom. As he correctly noted in his original post, any discussion of the value of his pistols needs to be via email or PM.

Ian.

Pukka Bundook · 8th November 2015, 03:15 PM

Ian,

I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East.
They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards.
I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship.
Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

Ian · 8th November 2015, 04:33 PM

Good point Pukka.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Ian,

I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East.
They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards.
I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship.
Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

rickystl · 8th November 2015, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Ian,

I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East.
They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards.
I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship.
Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

Hi Pukka.
Well, it's interesting what a few more photos can do to the decision making process.

LOL. I must say that after viewing these additional photos, that I comepletely agree with your assessment. It does in fact appear that the lock and barrel were shipped from France/Europe for final assembly somewhere in the Balkans/Ottoman Empire. As you mention, the chisel work, engraving, quality of the iron mounts, and even the inletting is not up to European standards. But is typical of what you would see on these pistols if locally assembled. Great observations on your part.
However, yes, this pair of pistols are a really nice example of the locally made Kubur pistols utilizing a European lock and barrel.
It's great that Andreas was able to identify the barrels. Thiss has been a fun Thread.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 9th November 2015, 01:57 AM

Hi Rick,

What threw me a bit, is that I only knew of the newer St Etienne proofs, which are AR crowned.....not AM. Thanks to Andreas for filling me in on this point!
Lovely to get pistols with such high quality locks. Very nice indeed.

Chertbolt · 10th November 2015, 07:59 PM

Andreas, thank you for those links! It was fun to see other examples with the Brosar name and even the same proof mark!

I did find this online book that mentions Auguste Merley, Though I do not read French so I'm not exactly sure what it says about him.

I also discovered the Saint Etienne proof house is still in operation.
Saint Etienne Website

Thank you again to all that have contributed to this thread!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

This crown is characteristic of the Saint Etienne proof bench. The AM is attributed to Auguste Merley, controller for civilian weapons (retired 1810). Please see here

HTML Code:

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t91622-vos-avis-sur-differents-pistolets-anciens

and here

HTML Code:

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t63478-restauration-pistolet-1er-empire

, also for images of Brosars barrels.
Andreas

rickystl · 13th November 2015, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Hi Rick,

What threw me a bit, is that I only knew of the newer St Etienne proofs, which are AR crowned.....not AM. Thanks to Andreas for filling me in on this point!
Lovely to get pistols with such high quality locks. Very nice indeed.

Hi Pukka.
What lead me astray is the European style triggers. You very rarly see this trigger on these pistols. It's usually the simple, flat trigger with the curl at the bottom. Of course, the triggers themselves could have been imported.
But the additional photos make it obvious these were assembled locally.
Nice pair of pistols, and a fun Thread.
Rick.

2nd November 2015, 09:03 PM	#1
Chertbolt Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 6	Flintlock Pair, Need help Identifying Hello all, I've been lurking around the forum for a couple days now looking for some information on a pair of flintlock pistols I am researching. I thought I would join and share what I have here. It is my hope that there may be a few of you that might know some information about these. I honestly do not have much information about these so I will mostly let the pictures speak for themselves. I will answer any questions to the best of my ability and please request additional pictures if you would like to see more detail. Also I am aware that the topic of value is not to be discussed on the forum though it is my understanding that I may request that I be privately messaged on that topic? Thank you for looking Attached Images

6th November 2015, 07:02 AM	#11
Chertbolt Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 6	Here is a close-up of the locks. Attached Images Last edited by Chertbolt; 7th November 2015 at 12:39 AM. Reason: Forgot to re-size photos.

4th November 2015, 05:09 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Although they look European at a first glance, I think they're Turkish made for export. One European characteristic is the separate ram rod. Also, the lock appears to be of better quality than most Eastern European/Balkan/Turkish guns I've seen. The punch marks are cryptic, and I have not heard of the name stamped under the breech. The chasing or chisel work also is a strong indication of that region. Silver wire inlay, ditto. These appear to be of pretty good quality, and not the late slipshod work too often seen. I would like to see some close ups of the lock from both sides.

4th November 2015, 06:51 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I confirm French pistols for Turkish market. For me the punch marks are silver proofs. Would be interesting to have the translation of the Arabic part... And also a photo of the locks from outside! If it's a true pair the value is increased... Kubur

4th November 2015, 07:15 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Could be also French pistols for Algerian market, anyway Ottoman The inscription will say... The frizen is not from the Balkans. Pure pistols for export, very good quality indeed

4th November 2015, 09:02 PM	#5
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	The punch marks are absolutely not French silver marks. This is something I have dealt with for a long time. The marks do not resemble those of any European country I know of.

4th November 2015, 11:00 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree for the punch marks especialy because one is 80 in Arabic numeral. But i still think that's a French pistol for export, probably from Marseille.

5th November 2015, 03:59 AM	#7
Chertbolt Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 6	Thank you for your input. I forgot to mention in my original post that I had the Arabic translated. I was told it reads the Arabic equivalent of "George Abraham" (or Ibrahim as its said in Arabic) with unconnected characters. Both pistols are marked with this name in the same location (underside of the grip). I also forgot to note that nearly every piece of sliver on both pistols is stamped the same as the picture I posted. ( a star, and what I also thought might be the Arabic numeral '80' ) I'm unable to upload addition pictures at this time but I will post some more detailed photographs tomorrow. If you look closely in the first picture you will notice both pistols have been defaced on the outside of the lock plate. I will get a close-up of this tomorrow. There is also quite a bit of engraving on top of the barrel I will try to photograph. It is a crescent moon surrounded by stars.

5th November 2015, 02:55 PM	#9
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Ottoman Silver Marks Kürkman, Garo Istanbul: Mathusalem Publications, 1996 English - 293 pages ISBN: 9789758129007 "A book by Garo Kürkman brings the tradition of silver marks and tughras, monograms of sultans in stylized script, into light.For centuries, during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, it was obligatory for gold and silver wares to be assayed and stamped at the states gold mint. These marks are catalogued in the book titled “Ottoman Silver Marks.” The book contains a complete list of the Tugra marks of the sultans and other silver marks."

6th November 2015, 01:31 AM	#10
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I don't have any references with Turkish marks. Rarely see any of that work here.

7th November 2015, 03:49 AM	#14
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I believe these pistols are Turkish/Ottoman, with European locks finished in the near east. The trigger-guards do not look French to me, and the engraving isn't French either. For Turkish pistols, these are very high -end. Congratulations on finding them! Actually, going by the lock -work, they appear English locks.... Edited to correct my English lock bit! On looking at the lock-work again, I see detachable pans. more or less unheard of in England.

7th November 2015, 11:19 AM	#15
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	Hello, The barrels are certainly French, the crowned AM is a St Etienne proof mark, and the name JEAN BROSARS appears in several examples, ca 1810. Andreas

7th November 2015, 09:15 PM	#16
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Did you perhaps mean false ramrods? Because they are definitely not functional or full in length. Unless you meant something else by full? Oh, ok. They are the "short" ramrods. That is one of the two variations of the "false ramrod". Also, note the European style trigger vs the flat curl trigger usually encountered on the Balkan made pieces. Thanks for the pics of the locks, also decorated in Ottoman style for local tastes. Rick

8th November 2015, 02:41 PM	#21
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Thank you Andreas. Excellent sources and directly relevant to the items under discussion. Chertbolt now has an answer to his question as to where these were made and by whom. As he correctly noted in his original post, any discussion of the value of his pistols needs to be via email or PM. Ian.

8th November 2015, 03:15 PM	#22
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ian, I think Chertbolt has an answer to where the barrels and locks were produced, but still believe these pistols were made and certainly engraved in the Near East. They are very good for that area, but without wishing anyone to think I am finding fault with them, the finish and engraving is not up to even middling French standards. I find it very difficult to believe that a French gunsmith could work down to this level of workmanship. Please do not take this as a derogatory remark. I really Do believe that these are Good quality, better by far than average for that area of the world.

9th November 2015, 01:57 AM	#25
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hi Rick, What threw me a bit, is that I only knew of the newer St Etienne proofs, which are AR crowned.....not AM. Thanks to Andreas for filling me in on this point! Lovely to get pistols with such high quality locks. Very nice indeed.