A pair of Chinese sword

benny.lee · 14th July 2016, 04:20 PM

A pair of Chinese sword
This is a pair of Chinese Qing Dynasty sword
Copper made the shell is very exquisite decoration, two swords in a sheath inside
This kind of sword is usually used by reading people, or civilian officials, and is more used to reflect identity.

Miguel · 14th July 2016, 08:35 PM

Nice pair of swords Benny I always wondered who used them now I know. You have posted some very interesting weapons I like the Dragon Mace very much. Thank you for sharing them. I have some Chinese swords which I will post shortly and would value your comments on them.
Regards
Miguel

Roland_M · 18th July 2016, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Nice pair of swords Benny I always wondered who used them now I know. You have posted some very interesting weapons I like the Dragon Mace very much. Thank you for sharing them. I have some Chinese swords which I will post shortly and would value your comments on them.
Regards
Miguel

This double swords were often used as swords for show-fighting in front of a paying audience.
I have one pair with many deep nicks, but they are definitely unsuitable for real fighting.

Roland

RSWORD · 19th July 2016, 03:36 AM

Thanks for posting these and other examples Benny. Very nice.

Miguel,

Look forward to your examples!

Miguel · 20th July 2016, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Nice pair of swords Benny I always wondered who used them now I know. You have posted some very interesting weapons I like the Dragon Mace very much. Thank you for sharing them. I have some Chinese swords which I will post shortly and would value your comments on them.
Regards
Miguel

Hello Benny and RSword Chinese swords as promised, I hope you like them and can give some idea of use and age. I believe they are all Qing (Manchu) dynasty varying from 19th to early 20th C. The first three are called Jian, I believe and the forth is a Dao.

No1: O/L 24 ins, blade length 18 ins x 1.625 ins wide.

No2: O/L 21.25 ins, blade length 15.5 ins x 1 ins wide

Miguel · 20th July 2016, 09:04 PM

No3: )/L 22 ins, blade length 16 ins x 1.125 ins wide

Miguel · 20th July 2016, 09:10 PM

No 4: O/L 36 ins, blade length 29 ins x 1.625 ins wide

RSWORD · 22nd July 2016, 03:36 AM

Hi Miguel,

Thanks for sharing your examples. They are all of the period you suspect which is 19th to turn of the century. The short jian are civilian swords and of the form that was most heavily brought back by soldiers of other countries of various campaigns. I have seen an example deposited in a museum that was gifted in the early 19th century but most date to the second half of the 19th to early part of the 20th century. The quality of these vary greatly. Both in the fittings to the blades. Over the years I have seen blades that might work well as a paper opener to well forged laminated blades. I have also run across older blades mounted in these fittings. The last example you show seems to have a well forged laminated blade. You can see the Hamon along the edge and the body of the blade shows some lamination. The middle example has an unusual blade but seems to show some evidence of a Hamon and lamination. The first example posted doesn't exhibit a Hamon or laminations from what can be seen in the pictures. Closer examination might tell a different story.

The dao is late 19th to early 20th century and seems to be village quality. The fullers on the blade are very uneven and sloppy and the blade looks lumpy like it hasn't been ground properly. You find lots of these village level swords produced during the boxer rebellion.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny.lee

A pair of Chinese sword
This is a pair of Chinese Qing Dynasty sword
Copper made the shell is very exquisite decoration, two swords in a sheath inside
This kind of sword is usually used by reading people, or civilian officials, and is more used to reflect identity.

Benny,
This is an interesting example of the edged weapon form known as 'shuangjian' (double sword) which is indeed a late Qing development of the notorious 'hudiedao' (butterfly knives) of Southern Chinese martial arts.

These can be puzzling as often they occur as paired swords with fully shaped rather than flattened on one side blades. These typically have separate compartments in the scabbard.

While these paired jian which are essentially a halved sword are most known as commercially produced souveniers from end of 19th c. China, they are based on the earlier examples of butterfly knives which are known to have been used as early as 1820s.

For further reading I would recommend:
"A Social History of the Hudiedao (Butterfly Sword) in the Southern Chinese Martial Arts"
Ben Judkins, "King Fu Tea" . Jan. 28, 2013
This superb article was greatly enhanced through Gavin Nugent and his amazing collections of these.

Also
"History and Design of Butterfly Swords"
Jeffrey Modell. 'King Fu Tai Chi' magazine April 2010

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 07:37 AM

Miguel,
Totally agree with Rick's excellent assessment of these swords, and most interesting examples.
The hole in the grip is a distinctively Qing affectation used to lace through a tassle, which was often regarded as embellishment in swordsmanship exhibitions in the Boxer Rebellion period as well in later occupation.
The jian was indeed a civilian weapon, many regarded as a key accoutrement for scholars, odd as it sounds.

The jian with the distinctive yellow tortoise shell material it seems that I have been told that material was often used in swords for diplomatic or presentation type gifts.

The dao with crudely fullered blade, as noted, likely village work. This rather munitions grade form of weapon indeed was often brought back from campaigns and occupying forces in China, and reflects innovation and skills of self styled armorers in remote and rural areas on volatile times.
This one has been well cleaned and grip well rewound from the cord which probably was long gone.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd July 2016, 01:48 PM

Philip Tom has provide some wonderful insight and references in to these swords in years past including provenance'd examples dating to 1762.

These swords were mainly swords for Taoism exorcism and also those of the ruling gentry, dating back far earlier in the single form.

I do have somewhere on file, a 19th century line drawing of a Taoist priest using these swords for ritual exorcism.

Gavin

josh stout · 22nd July 2016, 03:20 PM

The first set of shuang jian do no appear to be ritual swords, though, as stated, they were most probably owned by a scholar. Most of the later jian were indeed never intended to be used, but the first example has blades that appear longer and heavier than all of the following tortoise shell examples (the ones without intact scabbards probably had tortoise shell). These swords were used in a variety of contexts indicated by the symbols on the guard. The bats (fu) are luck symbols and could bring luck through ritual or just sitting on an altar. The other common symbol is the double happiness and may indicate the sword was a wedding gift. Many tortoise shell shuang jian were probably used this way. I have a set from Sumatra supposedly brought be Chinese fleeing the end of the Qing. They have every indication they were a wedding present but they also show signs they were used. I don't think it was for demonstration or performance. It is always useful to have something sharp.

In a larger context, double swords have a long history among the many double weapons of China. They are certainly well represented in Ming art and the famous "Ten Feet of Steel" from "Outlaws of the Marsh" (Water Margin) is a good example. Shuang jian are well represented among village jian though still a bit rare. These are solid tools with solid heavy blades with the stiff tight feel of weapons. While examples from the cities became more and more ceremonial, the villages made examples meant to be used.

Miguel · 22nd July 2016, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

The first set of shuang jian do no appear to be ritual swords, though, as stated, they were most probably owned by a scholar. Most of the later jian were indeed never intended to be used, but the first example has blades that appear longer and heavier than all of the following tortoise shell examples (the ones without intact scabbards probably had tortoise shell). These swords were used in a variety of contexts indicated by the symbols on the guard. The bats (fu) are luck symbols and could bring luck through ritual or just sitting on an altar. The other common symbol is the double happiness and may indicate the sword was a wedding gift. Many tortoise shell shuang jian were probably used this way. I have a set from Sumatra supposedly brought be Chinese fleeing the end of the Qing. They have every indication they were a wedding present but they also show signs they were used. I don't think it was for demonstration or performance. It is always useful to have something sharp.

In a larger context, double swords have a long history among the many double weapons of China. They are certainly well represented in Ming art and the famous "Ten Feet of Steel" from "Outlaws of the Marsh" (Water Margin) is a good example. Shuang jian are well represented among village jian though still a bit rare. These are solid tools with solid heavy blades with the stiff tight feel of weapons. While examples from the cities became more and more ceremonial, the villages made examples meant to be used.

Hello Josh,
Thanks for your interesting reply, even more info to add to my knowledge this forum is great and the knowledge of the members and staff never ceases to amaze me,
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 22nd July 2016, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Philip Tom has provide some wonderful insight and references in to these swords in years past including provenance'd examples dating to 1762.

These swords were mainly swords for Taoism exorcism and also those of the ruling gentry, dating back far earlier in the single form.

I do have somewhere on file, a 19th century line drawing of a Taoist priest using these swords for ritual exorcism.

Gavin

Hello Gavin,

Thanks for your reply with even more interesting info, it is much appreciated. Who is Phillip Tom ? I am afraid I do not know of him.
Regards
Miguel

estcrh · 22nd July 2016, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Who is Phillip Tom ? I am afraid I do not know of him.
Regards
Miguel

http://mandarinmansion.com/restoration/philip-tom

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 08:28 PM

Hi Miguel,
Philip Tom is one of the foremost authorities on Asian edged weapons, who has always worked closely with well known martial artist Scott Rodell, and I was remiss in not properly mentioning them here.
Some of the best information on these swords comes from his outstanding article, Some Notable Sabres of the Qing Dynasty at the Metropolitan Museum of Art", Philip Tom, Volume 36, 2001.
(found on line PDF).
He is a master restorer of these weapons, who has consulted with many authors on books as well as articles over many years.

Some of my most treasured references on Chinese weapons are the small, but powerfully informative catalogs of Scott Rodell's "Seven Stars Trading Co.", which are thoroughly appointed with the knowledge of Mr. Tom and Mr. Rodell.

Best regards
Jim

Miguel · 22nd July 2016, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Miguel,
Totally agree with Rick's excellent assessment of these swords, and most interesting examples.
The hole in the grip is a distinctively Qing affectation used to lace through a tassle, which was often regarded as embellishment in swordsmanship exhibitions in the Boxer Rebellion period as well in later occupation.
The jian was indeed a civilian weapon, many regarded as a key accoutrement for scholars, odd as it sounds.

The jian with the distinctive yellow tortoise shell material it seems that I have been told that material was often used in swords for diplomatic or presentation type gifts.

The dao with crudely fullered blade, as noted, likely village work. This rather munitions grade form of weapon indeed was often brought back from campaigns and occupying forces in China, and reflects innovation and skills of self styled armorers in remote and rural areas on volatile times.
This one has been well cleaned and grip well rewound from the cord which probably was long gone.

Hello Jim,

Thanks for your reply which adds to the info provided by RSWORD providing me with more knowledge about my swords. You are correct about the hilt being rewound it was done by the person that I acquired it from along time ago.
Regards
Miguel

benny.lee · 22nd July 2016, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Benny,
This is an interesting example of the edged weapon form known as 'shuangjian' (double sword) which is indeed a late Qing development of the notorious 'hudiedao' (butterfly knives) of Southern Chinese martial arts.

These can be puzzling as often they occur as paired swords with fully shaped rather than flattened on one side blades. These typically have separate compartments in the scabbard.

While these paired jian which are essentially a halved sword are most known as commercially produced souveniers from end of 19th c. China, they are based on the earlier examples of butterfly knives which are known to have been used as early as 1820s.

For further reading I would recommend:
"A Social History of the Hudiedao (Butterfly Sword) in the Southern Chinese Martial Arts"
Ben Judkins, "King Fu Tea" . Jan. 28, 2013
This superb article was greatly enhanced through Gavin Nugent and his amazing collections of these.

Also
"History and Design of Butterfly Swords"
Jeffrey Modell. 'King Fu Tai Chi' magazine April 2010

Thank you very much for the information

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 07:05 PM

Benny you are quite welcome. I only posted what I could find in a search about these to learn more on them myself and offer some perspective.
I am glad to see the insight added by Gav and Josh, who both have outstanding knowledge of Chinese weapons, and bring in the proper dimension to understanding them.
Thank you guys!

benny.lee · 22nd July 2016, 03:52 PM

1、This is called “福寿剑” "longevity sword"
Nineteenth Century, early twentieth Century in the south of China appears more
At the time of the people, they are auspicious items at home furnishings

2、The high-level "longevity sword"
The scabbard is using turtle shell, called turtle（玳瑁）

3、An ordinary DAO

Miguel · 22nd July 2016, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny.lee

1、This is called “福寿剑” "longevity sword"
Nineteenth Century, early twentieth Century in the south of China appears more
At the time of the people, they are auspicious items at home furnishings

2、The high-level "longevity sword"
The scabbard is using turtle shell, called turtle（玳瑁）

3、An ordinary DAO

Thanks for your reply and info.
Regards
Miguel

14th July 2016, 04:20 PM	#1
benny.lee Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 42	A pair of Chinese sword A pair of Chinese sword This is a pair of Chinese Qing Dynasty sword Copper made the shell is very exquisite decoration, two swords in a sheath inside This kind of sword is usually used by reading people, or civilian officials, and is more used to reflect identity. Attached Images

20th July 2016, 09:04 PM	#6
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	No3: )/L 22 ins, blade length 16 ins x 1.125 ins wide Attached Images

20th July 2016, 09:10 PM	#7
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	No 4: O/L 36 ins, blade length 29 ins x 1.625 ins wide Attached Images

22nd July 2016, 03:52 PM	#20
benny.lee Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 42	1、This is called “福寿剑” "longevity sword" Nineteenth Century, early twentieth Century in the south of China appears more At the time of the people, they are auspicious items at home furnishings 2、The high-level "longevity sword" The scabbard is using turtle shell, called turtle（玳瑁） 3、An ordinary DAO Attached Images

14th July 2016, 08:35 PM	#2
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Nice pair of swords Benny I always wondered who used them now I know. You have posted some very interesting weapons I like the Dragon Mace very much. Thank you for sharing them. I have some Chinese swords which I will post shortly and would value your comments on them. Regards Miguel

19th July 2016, 03:36 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Thanks for posting these and other examples Benny. Very nice. Miguel, Look forward to your examples!

22nd July 2016, 03:36 AM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Hi Miguel, Thanks for sharing your examples. They are all of the period you suspect which is 19th to turn of the century. The short jian are civilian swords and of the form that was most heavily brought back by soldiers of other countries of various campaigns. I have seen an example deposited in a museum that was gifted in the early 19th century but most date to the second half of the 19th to early part of the 20th century. The quality of these vary greatly. Both in the fittings to the blades. Over the years I have seen blades that might work well as a paper opener to well forged laminated blades. I have also run across older blades mounted in these fittings. The last example you show seems to have a well forged laminated blade. You can see the Hamon along the edge and the body of the blade shows some lamination. The middle example has an unusual blade but seems to show some evidence of a Hamon and lamination. The first example posted doesn't exhibit a Hamon or laminations from what can be seen in the pictures. Closer examination might tell a different story. The dao is late 19th to early 20th century and seems to be village quality. The fullers on the blade are very uneven and sloppy and the blade looks lumpy like it hasn't been ground properly. You find lots of these village level swords produced during the boxer rebellion.

22nd July 2016, 07:37 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Miguel, Totally agree with Rick's excellent assessment of these swords, and most interesting examples. The hole in the grip is a distinctively Qing affectation used to lace through a tassle, which was often regarded as embellishment in swordsmanship exhibitions in the Boxer Rebellion period as well in later occupation. The jian was indeed a civilian weapon, many regarded as a key accoutrement for scholars, odd as it sounds. The jian with the distinctive yellow tortoise shell material it seems that I have been told that material was often used in swords for diplomatic or presentation type gifts. The dao with crudely fullered blade, as noted, likely village work. This rather munitions grade form of weapon indeed was often brought back from campaigns and occupying forces in China, and reflects innovation and skills of self styled armorers in remote and rural areas on volatile times. This one has been well cleaned and grip well rewound from the cord which probably was long gone.

22nd July 2016, 01:48 PM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Philip Tom has provide some wonderful insight and references in to these swords in years past including provenance'd examples dating to 1762. These swords were mainly swords for Taoism exorcism and also those of the ruling gentry, dating back far earlier in the single form. I do have somewhere on file, a 19th century line drawing of a Taoist priest using these swords for ritual exorcism. Gavin

22nd July 2016, 03:20 PM	#12
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The first set of shuang jian do no appear to be ritual swords, though, as stated, they were most probably owned by a scholar. Most of the later jian were indeed never intended to be used, but the first example has blades that appear longer and heavier than all of the following tortoise shell examples (the ones without intact scabbards probably had tortoise shell). These swords were used in a variety of contexts indicated by the symbols on the guard. The bats (fu) are luck symbols and could bring luck through ritual or just sitting on an altar. The other common symbol is the double happiness and may indicate the sword was a wedding gift. Many tortoise shell shuang jian were probably used this way. I have a set from Sumatra supposedly brought be Chinese fleeing the end of the Qing. They have every indication they were a wedding present but they also show signs they were used. I don't think it was for demonstration or performance. It is always useful to have something sharp. In a larger context, double swords have a long history among the many double weapons of China. They are certainly well represented in Ming art and the famous "Ten Feet of Steel" from "Outlaws of the Marsh" (Water Margin) is a good example. Shuang jian are well represented among village jian though still a bit rare. These are solid tools with solid heavy blades with the stiff tight feel of weapons. While examples from the cities became more and more ceremonial, the villages made examples meant to be used.

22nd July 2016, 08:28 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Miguel, Philip Tom is one of the foremost authorities on Asian edged weapons, who has always worked closely with well known martial artist Scott Rodell, and I was remiss in not properly mentioning them here. Some of the best information on these swords comes from his outstanding article, Some Notable Sabres of the Qing Dynasty at the Metropolitan Museum of Art", Philip Tom, Volume 36, 2001. (found on line PDF). He is a master restorer of these weapons, who has consulted with many authors on books as well as articles over many years. Some of my most treasured references on Chinese weapons are the small, but powerfully informative catalogs of Scott Rodell's "Seven Stars Trading Co.", which are thoroughly appointed with the knowledge of Mr. Tom and Mr. Rodell. Best regards Jim

22nd July 2016, 07:05 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Benny you are quite welcome. I only posted what I could find in a search about these to learn more on them myself and offer some perspective. I am glad to see the insight added by Gav and Josh, who both have outstanding knowledge of Chinese weapons, and bring in the proper dimension to understanding them. Thank you guys!